Podcast – Working and studying in the UK

Voice Over:

Welcome to the Dementia Researcher podcast, brought to you by dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk, a network for early-career researchers.

Amy Monaghan:

Hello, my name is Amy Monaghan, and welcome back to our podcast recording for the NIHR Dementia Researcher website. This week, we’ll be looking at working and studying in the UK, and I’m joined by three panellists: Debra, Hanna, and Raisa. So Hanna, if you’d like to just say a few words first about where you’re from and what you do.

Hanna Isotalus:

Okay. So, hi everyone. My name is Hanna Isotalus, and I’m from Finland. I’m living and studying in Bristol right now, doing a PhD in memory and cognitive neurosciences.

Amy Monaghan:

That’s fine. That’s what you’re doing. We’ll move on to Deborah. Okay. So Deborah, if you’d like to tell us a little bit about where you’re from and what you’re doing.

Deborah Oliveira:

Hello everyone. So my name is Deborah. I’m from Brazil originally. I came to the UK in 2013 for my PhD, which I completed in 2016, and I started working as a research fellow managing a large European grant that is looking at improving the usability of current technology for people with dementia in the University of Nottingham.

Amy Monaghan:

Perfect. And Raisa.

Raisa-Zein:

Hello, my name is Raisa. I’m from Lebanon and I’m currently a PhD student in Bournemouth University. I’m looking into cognitive impairments and diet in people with mild cognitive impairment.

Amy Monaghan:

That’s great. And I’m Amy Monaghan, I’m a postdoctoral research associate at the Alzheimer’s Research UK Drug Discovery Institute at UCL. I’ve done all of my studying in the UK, so I’m definitely going to be relying on the panellists today to give us a few insights. If you want to follow us on Twitter, you can do that @dem_researcher, and if you have any questions, suggestions for future podcasts, you can direct them there. You can also join the discussion for this podcast using the hashtag #ECRdementia or on the Dementia Researcher website where there’ll be a forum page. The website is dementiaresearcher.NIHR.ac.uk, and you can also find this podcast and other podcasts on our iTunes and SoundCloud accounts.

Amy Monaghan:

So, embarking on a career in research presents a specific set of challenges, I think we’ll all agree. Doing so in a foreign country brings with it an added layer of complexity. These may range from different infrastructures that provide grants and funding, through to overcoming a complex set of language and social barriers. Our panel today are all early-career researchers from around the world. So Hanna, we’ll start with you, and I know this is a strange question for you because I know a little bit about your background, but can you tell us how you ended up studying in the UK? Because you’ve done all your studying in the UK, I think.

Hanna Isotalus:

Yeah, so when I was in sixth form in Finland, I did a student exchange here in Australia. So I went and lived there for a year when I was 16 or 17, and when I got back home to Finland from there I had this idea that I just wanted to travel and see the world. Then when I finished sixth form, I moved to Greece. I lived there for a while, and I was working there with children in mental health services.

Hanna Isotalus:

After I worked there as an assistant, I realized that maybe I want it to go to university and do something else, so I went on and wanted to study psychology, but it was really clear for me that I didn’t want to do that in Finland. I wanted to do it somewhere where I could see the world and experience something I could not experience in Finland. So, I looked at Melbourne University, Hawaii University … Ended up naturally deciding on Scotland and did my undergraduate degree in Glasgow. As to why …

Amy Monaghan:

I think there are many, many good reasons for studying in Scotland, because I did my undergraduate at Edinburgh and my PhD at Aberdeen. So no one is allowed to laugh at Scotland as a choice for where to choose to study.

Hanna Isotalus:

I definitely never regretted that choice when I was living there.

Amy Monaghan:

That’s great. So Debra, if you’d like to tell us a little bit about how you came to end up studying in the UK …

Deborah Oliveira:

I think as well, I wanted to have some kind of world experience. I lived all my life in Brazil, and I did all my undergrad and master’s degree in Brazil, so PhD seemed to be the final and last chance that I had. So, I decided to go abroad, and because I studied English for such a long time, it seemed that it was the best opportunity to go to the UK, or Canada, or US, or something like that. So, I started looking in the internet, the best options for dementia research, and the UK seemed to be one of the best places to do research on this field. So, I just decided to come to Nottingham. I didn’t know how nice people were there and how much joy I would find there, which was lovely. But I also didn’t know how much it was going to rain, so it was a bit of a shock. But yeah, here I am, still doing research in Nottingham.

Amy Monaghan:

I’m glad the rain hasn’t put you off.

Deborah Oliveira:

Not just yet.

Amy Monaghan:

Raisa, is there anything you could add?

Raisa-Zein:

Yeah, I did my undergrad back in Lebanon. Once I finished, I felt like I need to study somewhere else. See new system, kind of. So, what made sense was the UK. It’s not too far from home, so not taking that big of an adventure. It’s barely five hours away. So I ended up in Coventry doing my masters, and once I finished, I decided that want to do research in dementia. As Debra said, there’s no better place to do research in dementia than in the UK. So, I ended up moving to the coast, back to the beach and the warmer areas to Bournemouth.

Amy Monaghan:

I think … Yeah, Deborah’s laughing because she’s like, “Bournemouth isn’t warm. Brazil’s warm.”

Deborah Oliveira:

That’s not warm at all.

Raisa-Zein:

It’s warmer than Nottingham, I can assure you.

Amy Monaghan:

So we’ll go back to Deborah, actually, for the next question. What are the biggest challenges that you’ve had to overcome, moving to the UK and starting to study or research here?

Deborah Oliveira:

I think I was really lucky, in a sense, that I found many people that I identified myself with. I made lots of friends from the beginning. People from South America, people from here as well. I would say that, for me, as time … For many people, when they come to the UK, it’s very hard in the beginning and then it gets better. For me, it’s the opposite, it’s getting harder and harder because I’m finding myself with my friends going home, and I’m staying, so that’s very hard and it’s a very lonely place to be.

Deborah Oliveira:

So I suppose the social side of it is very difficult. You establish friendships and friendships … Friends just go home, so that was a bit hard. In terms of language, that was really tough as well. Although I understood everything my supervisors used to talk to me about in supervision meetings, I couldn’t buy anything in the stores, for example, because I wouldn’t understand anything the person would say. I remember asking a friend to buy a mobile phone for me because I couldn’t understand what the mobile phone had. You know, these kind of a tricky things. But you’ve got to be really open to let yourself make mistakes, and that’s how I think I overcame this kind of barriers.

Deborah Oliveira:

And I think in terms of research, it’s really tricky because we don’t know the system. It’s really, really hard. For people who are already from here, it’s already difficult to understand what many of the ethics, rules, regulations that change every year. For us it’s even more, because we don’t know what is social care, what is health care, what is … What anything has to do with it all. That was a bit tough, so having a very supportive environment was very important.

Amy Monaghan:

Yeah, I think what you’ve said about networks, and especially when people are moving away or moving back home, I think that’s applicable to everyone regardless if they’ve moved to the UK or not, but maybe more acutely so for you. Building a network around you is really, really important and having that support as an early career researcher. Raisa, we’ll come to you next, if you’ve had any particular challenges that you can talk about.

Raisa-Zein:

I think the most challenging thing was what you talked about, the ethics and trying to understand how the system goes, especially if you’re doing research in health. Most of the people around you have worked in the NHS before, so they know how it goes: the different departments, who you need to ask, what you need to ask. Sometimes supervisors believe that you know it, so they don’t go into details in it, and then you see yourself going back and forth because of that gap that nobody told you about. Then once you realize it, you’re like, “Oh, now I get it.” And then you have to do it all over again.

Amy Monaghan:

Is there any advice that you’ve got for overcoming that challenge?

Raisa-Zein:

Talk to someone who’s done the ethics recently. Someone who’s from the UK, just finished their ethics and just talk to them and help them help you go through it step by step.

Deborah Oliveira:

And if I can add to you, sometimes the supervisors think that they know, but actually they don’t, because it changes so fast. All procedures change every year, so sometimes they even give wrong advice and then you teach them. You end up teaching them about what is the current regulation, really.

Amy Monaghan:

And Hanna, have you got any particular challenges that you’ve experienced?

Hanna Isotalus:

Well, I think the ethics procedure is quite challenging for anyone who has to go through it for their research, so I’ve definitely found that that difficult. And then on a more personal note, like Deborah was saying about support networks and friendships … I found when I did my undergraduate, it wasn’t that much of an issue for me personally, but then when I went on to do my masters and my PhD, I’d really started to feel the distance from my family. Like my siblings having children, both my mom and dad have had bouts of ill health, and being far away from them … Even though I’m only from Finland, so technically not that far away, I could still travel quicker from Bristol to New York than I could travel to see my mom and dad. That kind of distance has, at times, felt quite difficult.

Amy Monaghan:

And have you got any strategies that you’ve used to try and manage that difficulty?

Hanna Isotalus:

Well, I think now with technology, it’s a lot easier. Certainly a lot easier than it was when I first started my undergraduate, to keep in touch. So we can do video calls with my nieces, and I can talk with my mom and dad on the phone without breaking the bank, so it’s helpful.

Amy Monaghan:

Deborah?

Deborah Oliveira:

I think something really important, actually … I wasn’t thinking about when I came to talk to this podcast because I thought it was really about dementia … but thinking about this social side is as a foreigner, what nobody ever told me about, before I came to the UK, was how you change as a person and your identity changes. I have a feeling that I don’t belong anywhere anymore. So if I go to Brazil, I miss the UK. If I’m in the UK, I miss Brazil. I feel like I don’t have a specific home anymore, and that’s really hard. And when you have some emotional challenges abroad, it’s very hard to talk about feelings in another language because you have all your emotional attachment to your mother tongue, and then you have to speak to psychologists or friends in English. That’s a very, very specific thing, but it makes total difference when you have an issue psychologically-speaking: stress, or …

Hanna Isotalus:

Yeah, and also for people who don’t have that experience of living far away from their friends and their family, they might not be able to relate to you when you’re going through difficult patches. So talking to them isn’t always that helpful either.

Amy Monaghan:

I think some of the things you’re reflecting on as well are not particularly unique to studying abroad, but just the stresses of being an early-career researcher and a PhD student, and the fact that it can be quite isolating at times and you really become buried in your work. Not being able to communicate those well be particularly challenging. So, we’ll move on … A little bit more upbeat, happy. We all like living in the UK, I’m assuming. That’s why we’ve all stayed … Let’s come to your first, Raisa. What’s your overall impression of the research environment that you’re in?

Raisa-Zein:

Coming in, I was pretty shocked about the research environment, especially the University in Bournemouth. They have an amazing program where they do even social support sessions for just PhD students. They do them during lunch times weekly, and then afternoons every other week, so we can just sit all together. They have all of us sitting, talking about our PhDs, how it’s going, providing support to one another. These kinds of things just remove you from your little research bubble that you feel yourself in when you’re doing all the work through the week, and then someone is on your desk saying, “No, you’re going to go and talk to others and then come back.” So I kind of love that.

Amy Monaghan:

I should’ve done my PhD in Bournemouth. Sounds amazing.

Raisa-Zein:

Yes, it is. Doctoral college works amazingly with that.

Amy Monaghan:

Yeah. And Debra, maybe a little bit more specific to the dementia research environment. Have you found it as good as you thought it was going to be?

Deborah Oliveira:

It was much better than I thought it would be, actually. I found myself … I don’t know, I had that idea that … I never thought a PhD could be so “your own.” You’re supposed to have ownership, obviously, about your research, but having that history as a masters student with your supervisor doing everything with you, I just felt so empowered. And that having all the services available, and everything work so well in terms of communication … People respond quickly, procedures work, whereas in Brazil you have lots of bureaucracy. So I felt empowered to do more than I actually could do, I think, in research in Brazil, if I may say.

Amy Monaghan:

And Hanna, what have your impressions been, maybe, throughout the whole time that you’ve been here?

Hanna Isotalus:

I don’t really have anything to say to this, I’ve not really thought of this question.

Amy Monaghan:

No more to add?

Hanna Isotalus:

Yeah.

Amy Monaghan:

That’s fine.

Hanna Isotalus:

[crosstalk 00:15:36].

Amy Monaghan:

No, it’s fine, but maybe we’ll go onto the next question for you then. What do you think is unique about doing dementia research in the UK compared to other countries?

Hanna Isotalus:

Of course my only experience is from within the UK, but even so, seeing how it’s such a small country … Sort of demographically, distances are quite small … And there are so many major research institutions within the UK. There’s a lot of collaboration, and there are so many national conferences that you can attend because they’ll be two hours away, if not by car, then by air. That is really quite unique, that you have all the expertise geographically so close.

Amy Monaghan:

And Deborah?

Deborah Oliveira:

I think something that you also have in other countries, but particularly in the UK is very strong … When I go to various meetings that I have across the Europe, and in even in South America, in Asia, we have a lot of public involvement, and I think that, especially in dementia, is very strong. It’s getting stronger and stronger, the idea that we have to listen to the voices of people with dementia, because I do psychosocial research and that’s really important, listening to family members. So the input that these people have on our decision making in research is very, very strong. I learned a lot through that, and when I go … I work still with people in Brazil, and when I see the kind of activities that they have, it just strikes me that that is not there, and people are not being involved from the beginning, from the design of the study. I’m being able now to take it there, so that’s really, really nice.

Amy Monaghan:

Are there any specific advantages that you think involving people at that really early stage confers?

Deborah Oliveira:

Well, they are the people living with disease, so they are the experts, so you can anticipate lots of challenges that you’re going to have throughout your research project if you ask them what they think from the beginning. For example, if you think about recruiting people in the train stations, let’s say, and then people with dementia will say, “Well, but we don’t actually go to train stations,” let’s say. So why would you do that? So you would be anticipating that that is not a good strategy. You have a lot to gain, also in terms of saving resources, saving time and stress, really.

Amy Monaghan:

And Raisa, have you found anything unique to the dementia research environment in the UK compared to Lebanon?

Raisa-Zein:

Yeah. The way the data is disseminated all over the world, not just in Lebanon. Usually the results of research are kept in journals among the scientific community, but in the UK, you see organizations trying to disseminate the data through BBC, through Twitter, anyway. Just to get to the patient and the carer of the patient, not just scientists … or healthcare providers who are looking into dementia, which kind of makes the people feel, as she said, more involved in the research and more willing to be recruited in future studies. This actually helps the progression of the research, in a way.

Amy Monaghan:

So empowerment of the people that are the subjects, basically, of this research. It’s really, really important.

Deborah Oliveira:

But I think in terms of dementia, specifically … Also it’s a natural phenomenon, I think, because we have been having dementia for a longer time than … lower-middle income countries. We’re starting to have this issue right now, so in the UK, there is much more awareness. And all the things of thinking, “Oh, this is part of aging,” is already becoming something that everybody knows is not true, whereas in Brazil, it’s still of the culture that, “She or he’s old and that’s why he’s getting forgetful,” and stuff like that. You can see the big difference, the gap that we have there, so being here is kind of being in the future, in a way. That’s a good thing.

Amy Monaghan:

That’s a nice way of describing it. I quite like that. So our final question: if you had one piece of advice that you could give to someone, thinking of studying in the UK … One, Deborah … what would that be?

Deborah Oliveira:

Whew. I don’t know. Would you like to start?

Raisa-Zein:

I would say, go for it. Don’t be scared. It’s really welcoming culture, country. Everybody’s always willing to help. The UK is really international so you wouldn’t feel alone. Wherever you come from, there’s someone else from the same country going through the same struggle, so it’s fine.

Hanna Isotalus:

Yeah, I second that. I’d also say that it’s quite helpful, if you get a chance, to have a deep look at their research institutions you’re looking at working with. There’s quite a lot of variability across research institutions in the UK and you want to make sure that you find the right fit for yourself in terms of what they have to offer, both socially and in terms of research.

Deborah Oliveira:

Also there are lots of communities, I would say, in Facebook and in Twitter that you can actually ask questions for people who are already studying there. That can be quite helpful in terms of practical stuff, accommodation, but also how friendly the city is and how many support groups, environments there is in the university you’re looking at applying. So I think having that informal research before, it’s very helpful as well.

Amy Monaghan:

That’s really good. So I think, generally, we can summarize that support is the most important thing that you think is necessary for studying … we’ll say in the UK, but maybe abroad. If someone from the UK is considering going abroad, I’m sure the same challenges will present themselves … and we’re all very happy with the dementia research environment in the UK as well. So that’s good, we’ve only said nice things.

Amy Monaghan:

Thank you all for coming in. It’s been really nice to talk to you all. You can find this podcast … Well, you’ve already found it, but you can find more on iTunes and SoundCloud and at the dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk website. If you’ve enjoyed it, please do tell your friends, tell them to listen. If you’ve got suggestions for other podcasts, you can tweet @dem_researcher, or you can use the hashtag #ECRdementia. If you’ve got any questions or discussions around this podcast as well, I’m sure we’ll all be online. Thank you very much all for coming in, and I hope we’ll speak again soon.

Panel:

Thank you.

Voice Over:

This was a podcast brought to you by Dementia Researcher. Everything you need in one place. Register today at dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.

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