Podcast – Royal Society Pairing Scheme – Insights from Westminster

Voice Over:

Welcome to the NIHR Dementia Researcher Podcast brought to you by dementiaresearcher.nhir.ac.uk, in association with Alzheimer’s Research UK and Alzheimer’s Society, supporting early career dementia researchers across the world.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Hello, my name is Dr. Fiona McLean, and I am a post-doctoral researcher at the University of Dundee, where I investigate how metabolic diseases, like obesity and type two diabetes, can lead to diminished brain function. And I also have a specific focus on the blood brain barrier. I’m really happy to be hosting this dementia researcher episode, where we will be exploring the Royal Society pairing scheme. For those of you not based in the UK, the Royal Society is the world’s oldest independent scientific academy dedicated to promoting excellence in science. Founded in 1660, its former presidents include the likes of Sir Isaac Newton, and its motto is nullius in verba, which translated from Latin mean take nobody’s word for it. Well, that’s enough of the history lesson, because today it has a thoroughly modern outlook, part of which includes supporting and encouraging diversity and early career researchers. This pairing scheme is designed to bring together research scientists and UK parliamentarians, politicians, and civil servants.

Dr Fiona McLean:

The scientists visit Westminster for a week where they gain an insight into house science and research can help inform policy making. They are also paired with a parliamentarian, for example, an MP or peer from the House of Lords, or a civil servant, in order to get an understanding of what rules at the forefront of policy and decision making are like. I was fortunate this year to secure a place on the scheme, which ran in person from the 13th to the 18th of March. And today, for this podcast, I’m joined by two other neuroscientists who were also on the scheme. With me is Dr. Sarah Marzi from the Dementia Research Institute at Imperial College London, and Dr. Dayne Beccano-Kelly from the Dementia Research Institute at Cardiff University. Hello.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Hey.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Hello.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Nice to be here.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah. So before we dive into what the pairing scheme is all about. Let’s find out a bit more about you both. So Dayne, why don’t you go first?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Okay. Well, my name’s Dayne Beccano-Kelly, I’ll drop the doctor part, and I’m a UKRI future leader fellow, so UK Research and Innovations future leader fellowship holder. And with that, I work on Parkinson’s disease. Specifically, the area of research that I’m in is looking at synaptic dysfunction. So I’m an electrophysiologist by trade, and so I’m focusing on the early most changes that we see at the synapse, which is where I think most of the dysfunction is happening. And my team and I are trying to look at multifaceted angles around that particular area. And I’ve just moved to Cardiff last year, actually. So the lab is just out of the teasing phase, and we’re starting to get rolling now, so it’s good.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Nice. That sounds amazing. Are you enjoying Cardiff?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah, it’s great. I was actually born here, so it’s a bit of a homecoming. So it’s nice to be back here. And yeah, it’s currently sunny, as it always is in Wales. And actually-

Dr Fiona McLean:

Just like it’s always sunny in Scotland, right?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah, exactly. It’s exactly the same. It’s exactly the same. No rain clouds here. It’s always sunshine at the beach, so it’s good/ but no, yeah, it’s lovely to be back.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Thanks so much, Dayne. Sarah. What about you?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

So, hi. I’m Sarah Marzi, and I’m based at Imperial College London, also part of the Dementia Research Institute. I’m an emerging leader, which is sort of a junior group leader position, and building my own little group. And our area of research is epigenetics, which means gene regulations, so all the mechanisms in your cells that control which genes are expressed at what point in time, how much of a gene. And these mechanisms are really responsive to environmental cues as well. And so what we are trying to do is understand how these epigenetic mechanisms are involved in translating genetic risk and environmental risk for common neurodegenerative diseases. And so we work specifically on Alzheimer’s and on Parkinson’s disease, which are caused, both of them, by a combination of genetic factors and environmental factors.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Amazing. I think it… Do you know what? I know that this is obviously our podcast talking about the Royal Society pairing scheme, but this science is so interesting. So maybe we’ll have to revisit it. So thank you both so much for your introductions. So yeah, let’s dive into what the Royal Society pairing scheme was all about and how it brought us together, three neuroscientists. I stumbled across the scheme when I was looking for research funding opportunities. And I ended up on the Royal Society’s website, and this opportunity caught my eye. And I’m really interested in how research can shape policy. And I have a personal interest in politics, so the scheme really intrigued me. I think also, I’m feeling quite frustrated, as a dementia researcher, about the amount of funding that’s been going into dementia, how it’s not really been enough. So back in 2019, the conservatives, in their manifesto, promised to double dementia research funding, and that’s never been fulfilled. And in fact, actually when you really break down the numbers, we can see that there’s been a decrease in funding.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So I guess I really wanted to find out about how to get my voice, as a dementia researcher, heard by people who can improve this. So Sarah, how did you find out about scheme and what motivated you to apply?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

So, yeah, I absolutely resonate with what you’ve just said. So I came across it from an email from the university. So I think each year when they advertise it, they send around a couple of emails, and sounded really interesting. I have to admit, I wasn’t very good at politics before. I didn’t really know that much about the different institutions and how government works and makes policy, but like you, I’ve been more aware of it recently that it kind of affects us as dementia researchers, also as part of Brexit and how science funding internationally is going to continue in this country. So I think we have to be more aware of it these days. And so I really wanted to learn more about, like you said, how my voice, as a scientist, can be heard and how we can bring in scientific evidence and informed opinions as scientists into policy making.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Definitely. And what about yourself, Dayne? How did you come across the pairing scheme?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah, so much the same. I wanted, like yourself, I wanted to understand how I could influence and change policy. From my perspective, I’ve been working on certain aspects of equality and equity, sorry, diversity and inclusiveness in stem, in science and research. And so I really wanted to know and understand more about how scientific policy is generated and how I could influence that and how I could try and make a real change, and it just interested me. And so I was discussing that with an old friend of mine who actually works for the government office of science. And he pointed me in the direction of this particular scheme, for which I then applied and successfully got through. So it was through my previous work and the desire to do it and some connections and sign posting, so it was good.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, that’s good. I think the one thing that all three of us sort of have in common is that we were all kind of motivated, that we wanted to be able to influence, be able to find out how we can help support our areas of research, and I think that’s quite interesting. It’s quite a good place to come from that motivation because it makes you want to go out and talk to people when you’re on this scheme. So now that we know why everyone wanted to apply, we should probably outline what we all got up to during the week. So we arrived on this Sunday. I think we did a competition when we were there amongst everybody of who’d traveled the furthest, and I thought I’d won it from [inaudible 00:08:28]

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

You thought you’d got it, until somebody said they’d come from like Italy that day.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah. And I was like, “Oh no, that’s definitely further.” So yeah, we arrived on the Sunday, and we had a really nice introductory dinner when we got there and we got to meet all the other researchers that were on the scheme, and the organizers as well. And that’s actually how we sort of realized that there was three dementia researchers on the scheme, which I thought was really cool, because it kind of meant that when we went and met the people from government, we could sort of have that sort of voice that one voice on what we wanted to say about supporting dementia research. So there were about 30 of us in total, I think. Would you agree, about 30? And although we were all from neuroscience backgrounds, everyone else was from really broad backgrounds from all across different UK institutes. So there was engineers, marine biologists. I’m trying to think who else it was.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Psychologists.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Psychologists.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Social scientists as well.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Social sciences. So I guess to anyone listening to the podcast, if you feel that maybe you’re from quite a broad discipline or whatever, you should still apply for it if you’re interested in policy. So that was really a wonderful experience, sort of be at the Royal Society, meet the people who run it and represent it. And then that evening, we then went to Westminster, and we had a parliamentary reception in the palace of Westminster. And we heard from MP Chi Onwurah, who is a shadow minister for science research and innovation. We also heard from Baroness Brown of Cambridge who chairs the Lords science and technology committee. And we also heard from Dr. Julie Maxton, who’s the executive director of the Royal Society. And the reception was also attended by societies and charities, including CARA, which stands for the Council for At Risk Academics, who are amazing, fantastic charity who support academics in immediate danger or in exile, and they assist them and try to continue their work and safety.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And they were there, as well as the Royal Society of Edinburgh and the Physiological Society, and a few other people as well. So who did you both talk to at the reception? And did you think it was a good networking opportunity?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I talked to Chi, and she was absolutely fantastic [inaudible 00:10:57] got across well. It was sad to not have George Freeman there. It would’ve been very good.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Who is the current-

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Minister.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Minister for science. Yeah.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And it would’ve been good to have him at the event based on scientists attending the Royal Society and integrating. His absence was obviously noted and missed, but she was fantastic.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I like her. She knows what she’s talking about. And I think for scientists, sometimes you get a bit worried about the representation of science in government. But when you see people like her sort of being the shadow minister for science representing and her views… And I actually thought, because I think all three of us spoke to her at sort of one point relatively sort of, yeah, at the same time… And you felt like she was really listening about the sort of support that we need for dementia research and how important it is as an issue, that there was this sort of lack of funding.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Well, going back to that ECR how much the Royal Society is pushing ECR, it was funding. That was what I brought up with her, about how we really are one of the only… Well, we’re a country that doesn’t have a really a tenure track system, and it doesn’t have a lot of roots to success that are firmly ingrained with the higher education institutions to allow ECR to have that roots and course upwards, and that we really need more of them. I mean, the UKRI FNF, the Future Leader Fellowship, is one, but it’s like the only one, and it’s coming to an end.

Dr Fiona McLean:

It’s competitive.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yes, exactly. And so it’s one of those things that there needs to be more of them, and money needs to… Otherwise, we’re going to end up with a brain drain and everybody moving to where places where they can get significantly tenured places, and we need more of that.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And that’s been sort of made a sort of worse situation by Brexit as well.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Oh yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

You don’t want-

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Magnified, isn’t it?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, it’s been magnified. So I think that’s a great topic to bring up.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

She was really receptive to that. And I think she was… I mean, she was wanting to know why that is and what are the barriers. And so it was a good five minute chat, so it was nice.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well… Well, one thing to point out is, if you hadn’t been on this scheme, you would never be able to have that level of conversation with the minister, or the shadow minister for science. So that’s one thing that the Royal Society scheme just allows you to do that. That’s the type of opportunity that’s really hard to get, but it’s great to hear that she’s receptive in listening. Sarah, what about you?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Couldn’t agree more. I think we were all fangirling a little bit over. And I think for me, it’s the combination… So she’s an engineer by background, so she clearly has solid understanding of science and takes that really seriously. She also isn’t afraid to speak opinions. She’s not too political in the way she expresses things, which I like and I find refreshing. And like you said, she really engages with people and listens actively and reacts to what people say to her. That is quite clear. And in fact, I got really lucky, because my original pair, who was a civil servant, kind of dropped me at the last minute because he was on holiday.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

So I just kind of snuck my way in and asked Chi what she was going to be doing, and managed to shadow her for a day on Wednesday, again, because she was so receptive about it. She said, drop me in email. And I thought, well, who knows? I bet she gets thousands of emails every day, but she got back to me, and she actively engaged with me, let me follow her around for a day, and it was the best experience ever.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think that’s really great that an MP has actually engaged with a scientist that well.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Yeah, exactly.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

It was amazing. I think that’s an amazing [inaudible 00:14:57]. You must have… Yeah.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

And at such last minute as well. And she’s such a… I mean, you can imagine, as a shadow, front [inaudible 00:15:04] minister, she is such a busy person, and yet she still thought it was important to take the time to engage with scientists and to support the scheme. So, yeah, that was really impressive.

Dr Fiona McLean:

[inaudible 00:15:19] We’ll come onto the shadowing days in a little while. So reception, really worthwhile going to, by the sounds of it, and just fantastic. On day two, we started with the tour of the parliament. I thought this was really cool. And maybe this is a bit… I mean, I’m already a bit geeky, because I’m a scientist, but this is a politics geekiness coming out as well, but it going into the house of commons. So you get to go in and see the house of commons and the house of Lords. And it’s kind of surreal, because the only time I’ve seen that before is on the TV, during the news or PMQs. And it’s weird because it’s like being on the TV set of a show you watch, because it’s so familiar, but you’re there, and you’ve never been there before. And so, yeah, what did you first think of sort of that tour in the morning?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

I thought it was fantastic. To be fair, it was my third time in [inaudible 00:16:12]

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I was going to say, I thought Sarah had been there before. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

I’m also based in London, and have been for the past nine years.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

So yeah. And I had a friend who worked in the house of Lords, so… But still, it still is kind of awe inspiring every time you are there, and because you have that association with the TV. And also, it is a really impressive palace and building. It’s quite overwhelming, right? And so historical, so old, some parts of it, so beautiful, and so much, yeah, pump almost.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah. A lot of history, a lot of history..

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

A lot of history. That’s the bit I liked. I don’t think we’re… We are [inaudible 00:16:58] here, so we’re all geeking out. It was really amazing, right? So it was… Sorry.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think… So this wasn’t on the tour, but Chris Law, who I was paired with, as I mentioned before, he took me into the chapel of St Mary Undercroft. I don’t know if either of you two went in. So I think you have to be taken in their with someone. You can’t just… It’s not open to the public, basically. And the chapel’s beautiful. Absolutely. It’s absolutely stunning. And I think it was built in… I’ve got it in my notes. It was built in 1365. So it’s really old, but my favorite bit wasn’t that chapel itself, it’s actually a cupboard in the chapel.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And in this cupboard, there’s now a plaque, and it’s to the suffragette, Emily Welding Davidson. And she actually hit herself in that cupboard in the chapel on the evening of the 1911 census, and she did that so that she would be registered as being in the palace of Westminster on the census. And she did this because it was a big deal because women weren’t allowed to vote then, let alone be members of parliament and in the Palace of Westminster. So I thought it was… I was staring in this cupboard, and I was like, ah. I was just like, this is cool.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

It is. There’s all these little bits of-

Dr Fiona McLean:

It’s just the cupboard, but-

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

These little bits that are making up the history of the whole thing, and they’re all important. And that’s really awesome. There was the-

Dr Fiona McLean:

I just thought really cool.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They chained themselves to the statues in the old, not commons, but the old parliamentary room where everything had been laid out like a church effectively, and has started all of the debates happening across the table, across the walkway, just because everything had been set up like a church. But then, somebody had… Well, suffragettes movement had chained themselves up, and they’d have had to break off one of the spurs off of one of the boots of where they’d chained themselves to on the statue. And it’s just remained like that because it’s part of history. And I quite like that sort of solidity of something’s been physically changed, and we’re just going to keep it like that because we need to remember it. And it was really cool.

Dr Fiona McLean:

It was really cool. Yeah, I love the history of that. The rest of day two, day three were when we were paired up with the people that we were shadowing. So who were you both paired up with? We talked about Sarah’s a little bit, but who were you both paired up with, and what did you learn from them? So Dayne, who were you paired up with?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

So I was paired up with Alan [inaudible 00:19:34], who is MP for the VA local Morgan, so my local MP, actually. It was lovely to be chatting with both my local MP and somebody who, I think, is held in high regard within his party. And so he took me to his office, and we sat down and talked about the scheme itself, what I hoped to gain from it, what my work was. And he seemed genuinely interested. He wanted to know and understand exactly how to link in.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And actually, gave me large swaths of advice to as to how to actually make changes and trying to implement them here in Wales. And it was really nice. It was good to be engaged with and to have a good old chat. And I sort of met him both on that Tuesday, and the Wednesday as well, on two separate occasions. On the Tuesday, we had a good old chat. And actually, he made a point to point out out his window, we could hear music blasting, and apparently one of his constituents had made a point to continually protest over a series of days by playing music as loud as he possibly could on on certain days where he knew Alan would be in there.

Dr Fiona McLean:

What was he protesting?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I think, in particular, it was Brexit-

Dr Fiona McLean:

Oh.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

… and the move for us to leave Europe, but there may have been a number of policies that he wasn’t agreeing with.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And what music was he playing?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

A whole host of,,, some of them were pretty good tunes, but a host of… Chumba Wumba was in there at one point, but it was stuff that was aimed to stop Alan from engaging, focusing thinking, which yeah, it was having a success, I think on one day, because he was actually trying to write his speech, his talk for the general questions that were that day, the general debate, of which they were talking about a general debate for the Ukraine. And I went to witness that, and it was really interesting as to see how they set themselves up for that. So he had been told that he might have a certain period of time to give his address and to say his piece, but he didn’t know how long that period of time would be until probably about 30, 20 minutes before.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And so he’d written it out, and then had said he was going to take out large chunks of it if it had been three minutes, which he thought it was going to be. But then it ended up being eight minutes. And so he was like, “This is an 11 minute speech, so I’ll take this bit out and this bit out, and then I’ll go in and execute.” And it was just the… I don’t know about you guys. When I’m giving a talk, I usually like to know what I’m going to be saying, not literally two seconds before. I like to know what I’m going to be doing before I go into it. So to watch him sort of be like, “All right, to get my main points across about how we should be supporting people coming from the Ukraine and granting them asylum and what we can be doing to do that,” he just chopped and changed that on the fly. And he still came across incredibly well, which was really a good-

Dr Fiona McLean:

It’s quite impressive.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

… use of a significant [inaudible 00:22:46]. It was rare. It was very impressive. So, yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think that’s something that we don’t appreciate all the time, is how fast moving politics is and how adaptable the people who are, whether their MPs, or also their assistance, the people who help them have to be-

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yes.

Dr Fiona McLean:

They have to be really on it.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And so-

Dr Fiona McLean:

Wow.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

It was, yeah, really… It was engaging. It was nice to be there. And then obviously, his staff also put me the agenda for the next day, which included the select committee, which we’ll talk about in a moment, I think, but that was great to be part of that.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah. So it sounds like you got a lot out of that.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I think so, yeah. So I came away thinking, yeah, like I said, he gave some advice as to how to engage MPs here in the Wales, and how best to do that what the right approaches would be to really get changes going and having a steady contact with individuals that could really make a change. And I think that was actually… You could just be like, “Well, I’ll just go in and say it.” Even if you started to understand how the politics worked, which I’m with Sarah, I was sort of… I understood, but then there were sections of it that I didn’t really understand. And select committees, again, as we’re going to come onto in the moment, was something that wasn’t wholly on my radar. I knew that their purpose, but I didn’t realize their influence and how that cross party section of it really was quite a unique benefit to having that. But it was really interesting having him tell me exactly how to execute it in much more real terms, I suppose, of how to make a change and engage with policy and-

Dr Fiona McLean:

That’s interesting, I’d quite a lot of similar conversations with Chris Law. As I mentioned before, he’s my local MP. And the one thing that he gave good advice on is, if you’re going to email your MP, email them directly and personally, as in personally from you, because I think there’s quite a lot of petitions go around where it’s, “Ask your MP to take part in this debate,” or “Ask your MP sign petition.” And it’s on an automatic response, sort of click button. It’s an automatic message. So they get a lot of those in. So, because they’re all the same, if you’ve even added anything on sort of at the end that’s unique to what you want to say, it probably will get lost. Whereas if you sit down and write from your own email address, what you want to say and say why you’re passionate about it, they’re a lot more likely to engage.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So I think that’s actually really important for a lot of dementia researchers and scientists who are listening to this podcast, because I think a lot of time, we do get these sort of messages from sometimes the charities that we work closely with to sign petitions, or ask our MPS to sign petitions or support something. And actually just taking that five minutes to send the email yourself, in your own words probably will have a lot more influence than just clicking the button. And that’s something that I really took away from it, is like, right, I’m actually… If I’m going to take part in those things and support those things out, I’ll probably just write it myself. And I was quite fortunate in some ways. So Chris was away on the first day doing some of the humanitarian work that he does alongside… sort of as part of his role as an MP.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And so I had the chance to speak to another SMP MP, Carol Monaghan, who… She is a Glasgow MP, but she also chairs the science and technology committee meeting on diversity and inclusion in stem. And we had some really good conversations about women in stem and the barriers that they face, and about ECRs as well, early career researchers. And it was really great to talk to her. And it was really nice to meet someone who’d been in science, and then moved into politics. So she did a physics degree, and then became a physics teacher, and then became an MP. And I think she almost covers all the bases in a way, because she’s kind of done the science, but she’s also done the education side of science, and now she’s in politics.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And she was very interesting to talk to. And then, like I was mentioning before, Chris was really interesting talk to as well, and it was lovely to get sort of one on one chats with him, not only as sort of a scientist trying to learn about policy, but also as his constituent, and talk about Dundee and the university and how important science is to the community that I live in. So, back to Sarah. So you were, as you mentioned before, you lost your pairing.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Yes. [inaudible 00:27:37], but essentially for the days that we were in parliament, I lost by pairing. So I was supposed to be working with a civil servant from the office for life sciences, which is actually a really, really interesting office and a really interesting place to engage for our scientists with within the government, I think.

Dr Fiona McLean:

What do they do? Just as an overview [inaudible 00:27:59]

Dr Sarah Marzi:

They’re responsible for implementing kind of life science related innovation and bringing together industry and research, with a somewhat commercial outlook as well, like spinoffs, startups, and new things, but also funding new scientific initiatives and things. And they sort of hybridly fall under the under base. So the department for business energy and industrial strategy, and half under health and social care. So they really have this strong healthcare implementation focus on their life sciences as well. And I’ve since spoken to some people there. And I do think they do really interesting work. And they come up with these new initiatives, and they talk to stakeholders, mainly from industry, I’ve found. So I think this is a place where they should be talking more to a scientist. And we, scientists, should be engaging more with them, because I think we have a lot to say about recommendations of where this funding should go or how we can make things work better.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So there’s a lack of academic input is what you’re saying?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

That was… Yes. That was generally my impression, that when politicians want to engage with scientific questions, they would first turn to industry and not to academia, really. I just think it’s a matter of what habits and defaults, right? Because I think industry probably more proactively engages with government. And so they built up networks and contacts, and that’s been the default thing for them to go to. So something like the Royal Society pairing scheme, again, I think comes in really useful here, because it starts to build up some of those connection between academics and politicians as well.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely. That’s such a good point. It’s a two way street. So we need to engage more with government so that they feel more comfortable, or know the roots to engaging with us as academics as well, in academic institutes. And I think that’s a challenge. I think it’s a challenge for us, and I think it’s a challenge for them. But if they, as the government, think that they’ve already got the roots that they’re happy with, I think it’s down to us to show that actually no, you’re missing out.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

You are. Yeah. And that they’re alternative route, yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Exactly.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And so we do need to do that. I think, yeah, that’s entirely right. You’re right.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

If I may, on that note, because I talked about the office for life sciences, but then actually what happened is, I spoke to Chi Onwurah, our shadow minister for science on Monday, and she had me follow her around all of Wednesday, basically. And I was just… I mean, my first impression is, how many different topics and things can one person cover in a single day? And going kind of along the lines of what Dayne was saying before, no prep jumping right into this, from this reception to that panel to an ITV interview, recorded a full interview in like five to 10 minutes, sounds really eloquent, and yeah, has good opinions on everything, but… And there are no re-dos. She just does it, and it’s right there on it, and switching between topics all the time. And because she hadn’t obviously planned to have me come along, because I wasn’t her official para or anything. In fact, I was lucky because she’s the MP for New Castle and would’ve preferred, I think, someone from her own constituency, I think partially made up for it by being from Imperial College, which is her own [inaudible 00:31:24]

Dr Fiona McLean:

Ah, that’s good. That’s good.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

But yeah, so basically, all of our chats were sort of the five minutes walking from here to there. And we talk about some of my science and some of her policy making. So you have to be so switched on, and yeah, really good at multitasking and jumping between different topics and things. So really, really impressive. And one of the panels that she participated in was really about making politicians more science savvy and bringing more science knowledge into politics so that policy decisions can be made on a better informed basis.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think that’s interesting. I think this is something that actually has been sort of highlighted by the pandemic, is how we need sort of better representation of scientists and science across a really broad range of topics in government. And I think… It’s interesting because we obviously, at the moment, are hearing this phrase, science superpower, a lot in the media. And I don’t think we’re really seeing how that’s happening, but one of the things I did think was interesting was hearing about the number of scientists that are actually employing in the government, for example, in the office for science. And it’s doubled. I think they’ve doubled the number of scientists that they’re employed.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They’re actively trying to push through it. Yeah. So go science. Yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So now, we’ve mentioned a few times about what select committees are. So let’s actually delve into that and let everyone listening know what a select committee is, because I’ll be honest, I kind of heard the term, but I didn’t really know what it was and what I was aiming to do until I went on this pairing scheme. So both Dayne and I attended the science and technology select committee, which was meeting to discuss diversity and inclusion in stem. So first of all, let’s explain what a select committee is, and why they are important. So Dayne, do you want to.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I can.

Dr Fiona McLean:

… go for a description [inaudible 00:33:22]

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

… start us off. And if I miss anything, you have to-

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

First of all, it’s a selection of MPs from all the parliamentary groups. So it’s a cross council thing. It’s across parliamentary groups, across party setup. And that for a start, that did stun me, but I don’t know why. I just, I knew that they existed like that, but I suppose I thought maybe there was supposed to be more political infighting when we actually saw it operating. [inaudible 00:33:55]. So what we have there is a committee that is set there to investigate or look into and learn more about a specific point or area of society. And so the one that we were looking at, and we were present for, was equality, diversity and inclusion in stem, in technology and research, and in science. And what they’ll do is that they have a particular ideal that they’re trying to look at and investigate in more detail. And what they’ve done is that they’ll invite witnesses, witnesses who will have been allowed to freely submit, in some cases, testimony and information on the subject matter, being… What’s the word? … experts in that particular area.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Sometimes those individuals will have been… Summoned isn’t quite the right word, because it’s not court, but it will have been asked to attend and to give their testimony and submit the information. And so what they will do is gather this information from expert witnesses, expert opinions, in order to come to a conclusion of how policy may be shifted, altered, changed, designed in order to change what was wrong with that particular area being investigated. And I think ours was in particularly important to, I think, the three of us here, and I think to the wider scientific community at large, but it was, it was an interesting, an interesting meeting, I think, to say least. I don’t know if I’ve missed something there, Fiona.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So it was kind of split into two sessions, wasn’t it? So the first session was two witnesses who were looking at inclusion and diversity at sort of a high school level, or even actually just a school level. So looking at what is it that makes certain groups in society step back from doing science degrees and studying them. And they were trying to find out what the reasons were and how they could actually address them or change that by implementing policies through government. And then the second half of it was looking at… It was kind of more funding focused, so looking at funding, and again, why certain groups are underrepresented, whether that be in securing funding, or also sitting on the boards that make funding decisions. So those were two people… They were both… I think they were both professors at universities, yeah. And the evidence was…

Dr Fiona McLean:

I mean, we were just quite like, whoa. It was interesting to see, in a select committee in that style, basically the issues from being five years old, all the way up to our career stages now. It was like, oh my goodness, there’s so many barriers to women, and there’s so many barriers to ethnic minorities and disabilities and anyone who just doesn’t fit that norm that has come before.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Effectively all the underrepresented groups that are within our stem community. There are barriers that are preventing an increase in those particular underrepresentation, underrepresented groups. So it was just perpetuated, and it was really bad.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So we’ve kind of been talking about sort of diversity inclusion itself, but to bring it back to select committee, just to sort of explain that. So basically, it’s set up, and witnesses come in and they give oral evidence. But before that, you can go online, actually… Do you know what? Anyone can go online and do this. And this is something that I’m going to keep an eye on now, because I realize that you can actually have influence on these select committees as a scientist from sitting at home. So basically, you can go online and you can look on the UK parliament website. And under committees, there’s a section of find an inquiry.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And you can type in a search word and it’ll bring up anything that has that word in it that you’re interested in, and you can submit written evidence. And they said if you do this, then the best thing to do is be succinct and to the point, because if it goes on and on and on, they’re not going to use it, but I think it said about 350 words, is usually what’s appropriate. And yeah, you can give your own evidence. So any of us could have given evidence at the beginning of the inclusion and diversity inquiry, and you might be asked to come in as a witness. [inaudible 00:38:45]

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

This was something… Yeah. I don’t know about you. This was something I just didn’t really know. I thought that you would be selected and called up. I thought the second half of what we were describing it as earlier was the thing. They would ask professors, as they did, to come in, and that was basically about it. It was experts as they had deemed them, I suppose, is what I thought was… But it was amazing that you can actually influence. I think this is a fantastic thing. This is something… One of the huge take homes that I took from this was, you can influence it in this manner. If you do feel strongly about something, you’re right. You be succinct. Don’t just press a lot about your own personal opinions, but based on facts.

Dr Fiona McLean:

But it’s something they want to hear. Yeah.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They do want to hear [inaudible 00:39:27].

Dr Fiona McLean:

Do want to hear personal.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

No, I agree, but I was odd to know that I could influence policy in that way. Is the EDI one actually closed now? Because they’re going to record.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And that one for written evidence is, because it’s moved on to… We saw it move on to the-

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They’ve moved onto-

Dr Fiona McLean:

[inaudible 00:39:47].

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah. The UKRI going to be called to give evidence now, I think though.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

What I was going to point out, if [inaudible 00:39:55], upon hearing Dayne and Fiona talk about this amazing equality and diversity session in the select committee, which I miss, if you would like to hear more about it, they actually record all of these things online.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They do.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

You can actually watch the whole thing online, and you can see Dayne sitting behind.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah, we were caught on shot, Fiona. We were sat there, and I was like, oh my gosh.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I know.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

We’re going to have to [inaudible 00:40:18].

Dr Fiona McLean:

Totally know.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

I went and rewatched some of this because it sounded like such an amazing and such an important session for our scientists.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And the… That’s a really good point to me. So they save a lot of their… In fact, all of their official reporting goes onto Hansard. And that’s, like I say, the official report of all parliamentary debates and committees. And you can… I think it goes back. I mean, it goes back hundreds of years. And they keep it up to date, so we will be able to see whatever happened today tomorrow. It should be online. And just one point I’d like to make on what you’re saying about being involved in select committees and giving written or oral evidence if you’re asked to come forward, we talk about impact a lot in science. We talk about how can we make impact with the work that we’re doing in the lab. And we focus a lot on papers, obviously, so impact within our scientific communities. And I think we’re getting a lot better at the impact we can make through public engagement. I think that’s definitely picked up.

Dr Fiona McLean:

What I don’t think has been promoted or pushed much is impact through policy. It kind of gets mentioned a bit, but nobody really explains how you can make that impact. And this is a really good way to do that. You can go online, you can submit your evidence. If it’s in your area or research, whether that’s dementia, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, whether that’s something to do with research environments, academia funding, you can give your opinion and influence, because they said they will read every… They read every single bit of written evidence that get submitted.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They did say that.

Dr Fiona McLean:

They read. Someone reads it.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah. And I thought this… Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s fantastic to know that you can do that.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And influence.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Get out there and do it.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah. Anyone listening, go online, have a look at this.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

It’s so great that we can actually engage in this way. So now we’ve talked about select committees. And the other thing I’d just like to mention before we move on from that is that the UK parliament outreach and engagement service, they actually work in partnership with committees to identify ways which you can become more involved with select committees. So they might be a place to go to if you think, “I want to do this, I’m not sure how I do this.” They’re probably the way, the people to contact. So we’ve talked about the shadowing, the whole experience of being there. And just to wrap up now, let’s ask a couple of questions on… What was something that you learned during the week that surprised you the most? So what was something that you sort of think, “Oh, I didn’t expect to learn”? Apart from, obviously… I think the select committees, for me, was surprising. I was like, oh, I can actually do that. Yeah. I actually… Well, I’ll start then. One of the things I thought was really interesting was… Obviously talking to the MPs was really great.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I really enjoyed talking to the people who assist them, because I feel like you find out a bit more about the reality and what goes on from those people. And Chrissy’s employee, Paul. Who assists him in his office, was just fantastic. I spoke to him a lot on Wednesday, alongside speaking to Carol. And also… And I can’t remember her name, but also Carol’s person who assists her as well. She was lovely and fantastic. And it was interesting because she wasn’t actually sort of an… She didn’t come through the SMP party. I think it was more she was just interested in politics and found the position. And I think that’s interesting to know that maybe not everyone who’s working within a party is actually sort of stuck to that party.

Dr Fiona McLean:

They might have more sort of cross party views. I think that’s really interesting to learn about. And also, one of my favorite questions to ask the MPs and the people that they worked with was, who’s your favorite MP that is not in the party that you are? I loved asking that question cause it made them stop and think. And they were like, “Well actually, I quite like working with this person from the conservatives, or this person from the DUP, or there’s this lib dem person I like to work with.” It was just really interesting. And I think that’s something really important to highlight, is that there is a lot of cross party work and-

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

Interaction, yeah.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, interaction that goes on. And that’s a really important thing, because when you have parties that are as big as the labor party and the conservative party, not everyone within that party is going to have the same view, and I think it’s important to realize that they are people themselves, and they also are not just representing their party, but they’re also having to represent their constituents. And they’re going to have the voice in their own head that has their own opinions when they’re making decisions. So it is a hard job, I think, to be an MP and to sort of decide how you’re going to support something, or if you’re going to sport at all. Sarah, what did you walk away from and think, “Oh gosh”?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Well, I think I was really overwhelmed, impressed by the size, quality, and efficiency of the civil service, public service kind of aspect of government, and this includes things like select committees and other mechanisms through which policy making is driven. And so when, for example, Dayne says something like, “They read all the written evidence,” that’s not the MPs that read all the written evidence. There would be some public or civil servants that really go through this that have really in depth knowledge of those things, and that then distill down and drive a lot of the writing of the outcome materials and reports of that as well. And I didn’t realize, yeah, how big this is, how much influence this has. What we get, as normal consumers of politics, is I think a very distilled version that some cabinet minister says at the end of the day to the TV. And we were not even aware of all the process, input, and evidence that goes into then making a final decision on whatever policy it is.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

And I was, yeah, really impressed by the quality of that. On the last day, we learned a bit about what happens in crisis situations, for example. Say you have a new pandemic, or say you have some problems with your vaccines that have side effects, what do you even do as a government? And there are so many efficient processes in place where they gather experts, where they evaluate what to do. And yeah, I was utterly impressed by that.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think just to touch that briefly as well, I think from COVID and pandemic, there’s going to be a lot of select committees, and a lot of discussion around how we deal with the next huge challenge. And I think it’s interesting, because I think when we were there already, they were saying, “We need to broaden out the places that we find our experts, their backgrounds, where they’re from, geographically, as well as individuals’ own backgrounds as well.” So ort of going back to that sort of diversity and inclusion, that’s really, really important, as well as within scientific topics themselves, because I think they fully admit themselves that they were prepared for a flu pandemic. They were not really prepared for anything else. And I think that’s been a tough lesson that they’ve learned, but hopefully it is a lesson that they’ve learned, and they’re going to really broaden out where they gather their information from as part of that. So, yeah. Dayne, yeah, what did you sort of [inaudible 00:47:56]?

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I think we’ve covered a lot of the select committee, like I said, and the influence that you can have for there. I thought it was fascinating, although I guess it makes sense, but understanding the fact that people didn’t just tow the party line. They had to think about what was important for their constituents, but also themselves. And I suppose it just came to the form more when we were there and experiencing things like the PMQs or some of the debates, or the select committees. It just made it a bit more, oh, I understand that you’re having to have several hats on any given moment, and that actually, there’ll be sometimes where you’re just like, “Well, no I can’t be voting on this and this policy in this way because it doesn’t sit right with X, Y, and Z.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

And I just thought that was interesting. I think one of the last day, as Sarah sort of talking about, alluding to, was really interesting, where we had deputy director of GO and influence from people on DEFRA, et cetera, and how we, as scientists, can have another role perhaps in addition to the ones that we have in academia, specifically another job role where you can go and be scientific advisors, be employed as a scientific advisor, which I thought you might have to do as a sort of a full time thing.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

But actually you can [inaudible 00:49:17]

Dr Fiona McLean:

But they talked about secondments a lot.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

They talked about secondments, and this was something that actually caught my eye, and I was very intrigued by this prospect.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So just to wrap up then, why would you both recommend the Royal Society pairing scheme?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

For me, it’s just been a huge learning experience about all the ways in which policy is made, in which government responds to various different scenarios, in which I, as a scientist, can get involved in things like select committees, providing evidence, how transparent a lot of this is. There are other instruments that the government uses, like all party parliamentary groups, for example, that are open to the public. And yeah, I was just quite impressed by how much you can get involved in and interact with, if you want to, and if you make an effort,

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely. Dayne.

Dr Dayne Beccano-Kelly:

I, 100% agree. I think it was the learning curve. I think it was… No matter how much you think you understand the politics and how we are ought to interact, I think there was something to be learned by everybody. I think everybody here learned something, and we’ve all said something that we’ve learned today. And I think it was just… I think I would recommend it because I think it’s important for us to be interacting, as I mentioned just before, and I think it’s an inspiring way to learn how to do that. And so for that reason, I think next year’s crop will go, come away with the same sets of feelings. I think that you’ll come away thinking, “Well, how can I do it?” Or you’ll go in there saying, “How can I do it?” And you’ll come away with actual active ways of executing and influencing policy and politics. So it was great. It was nice to be able to be able to see a real route to being able to change something that affects both our local community in the science realm and the world at large. It was nice. Great.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I think it was a hugely empowering experience, especially for people at our career stage. I think it just showed how you can, yeah, that route to how you can influence policy, and how to connect with policy development. And I’m going to say it, I found it really fun. It was fun talking to people who do something totally different. It was just really amazing to see, like I say, what the Royal Society do. They were just fantastic and just really intriguing, and like I say, empowering to see how, as individuals, we can influence policy in government. And if anyone listening thinks that they would like to apply to the Royal Society pairing scheme for next year, the best thing to do is to keep an eye on their website, which is royalsociety.org. I think for us, the deadline was in October, so just keep an eye before then. So maybe August, September, keep an eye.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And a top tip for having a successful application is to make sure that you have a really clear lay explanation of your science. So that was a really important part of the application form, and this is because not everyone who reads it will be from a science background. And also, make sure to explain how exciting your work is, because I think for them, they really want people who are excited about the research they do, and who want to talk about it to them. So make sure you hype your research up. So I’m just going to end this podcast now by saying thank you so much to Sarah and Dayne for joining me today. We have profiles on all our guests on the website, which includes details of their Twitter accounts. So if you have any questions or just want to reach out and say hello, then drop us a line. Thank you for listening. And please don’t forget, you will find lots of support for early career researchers, event, listings, and blogs on the same topic from a regular contributor, Dr. Clarissa Giebel on the Dementia Researcher website.

Voice Over:

Brought to by dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk, in association with Alzheimer’s Research UK, and Alzheimer’s society, supporting early career dementia researchers across the world.

END