Podcast – Minds In Motion, Dr Olivia Luijnenburg, Spirituality in Dementia Care

Voice Over:

The Minds in Motion Podcast from Dementia Researcher in association with the NIHR applied research Collaborations and Alzheimer's Society showcasing exciting new research and the work of the Dem Comm Fellows.

Dr Sarah Smith:

Hello and welcome to a brand-new series of the Minds in Motion podcast from Dementia Researcher showcasing the work and careers of the incredible researchers in the NIHR Alzheimer's Society Dem Comm Fellowship programme. Over the next five episodes, four colleagues and I will each take a turn as being the show's host and then the guest all alongside our anchor, the incredible Trevor Solomon. In this first show we're interviewing Olivia, a Dem Comm research fellow from the NIHR Health and Social Care Workforce Research Unit at King's College London and exploring her research on dementia, care homes, and the social care workforce.

I'm Dr. Sarah Kate Smith. I'm a Dem Comm research fellow in the NIHR applied research collaboration Greater Manchester based at the University of Manchester. My research is focused on physical activity, in midlife particularly, and the potential to reduce the risk of cognitive decline in later life. And it's my pleasure to be guest hosting alongside my co-host Trevor Salomon.

Trevor Salomon:

Thanks so much, Sarah. Hello. I am Trevor Salomon and it's great to be back for season two. For those who didn't catch season one, I'm an Alzheimer's Society champion, they sometimes refer to me as a campaigner, and I'm chair of the European Dementia Carers Working Group. My passion and involvement are driven through the time I've spent as a full-time carer for my wife Yvonne, who was diagnosed with young onset Alzheimer's disease at the age of 57. I love hearing about some of the amazing research taking place to improve the lives of people living with dementia, and carers like me, and it's brilliant to have a chance to ask the questions. But that's enough by way of introductions, let's get on with the show.

Hi Olivia, could I start by asking you please to introduce yourself?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Hi Trevor. Hi Sarah. First of all, thank you for having me on the podcast, it's really nice to be here. So, I am Olivia Luijnenburg, I'm a postdoctoral research fellow funded through the Dem Comm Fellowship Scheme, and I'm based at the NIHR Health and Social Care Workforce Research Units, which is a mouthful, at King's College London at the Policy Institute there. And so, my background was my undergraduate studies were in religious studies and my master's in medical anthropology. And yeah, those disciplines and topics, they're really coming back quite a bit in my research now.

Trevor Salomon:

Thank you for the introduction. And can you please tell us about your current research?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yes, of course. So, I am involved in quite a few research projects as I think most research will know that that's what happens when you're in academia. But my main project, which I think I will talk about mostly here, is co-developing a reflective spirituality tool that aims to support dementia care home workers, as well as people living with dementia in care homes and their families and friends to really help understand and also attend to the spiritual needs of care home residents living with dementia. And spirituality is a really difficult to define thing, let's say, so I think this is a really challenging but also therefore really powerful research topic. Most people's minds immediately go to religion and faith, which of course is definitely part of spirituality, but I think it's important to also look at spirituality from a broader sense. So really looking at spirituality as those things that give people meaning and purpose in life.

That can potentially be religion, but it can also be things like connection to the self for others, it can be through food and cooking, it can be through nature, music, creativity, and all such things, that is what makes people feel meaningful in their lives. And so, for my PhD, I investigated the spiritual needs of older people living in care homes. And as I'm an anthropologist, I naturally went for the methodology of ethnography. I did a lot of interviews with care home residents, I did focus group with staff as well as lots of participant observations of course, which is very ethnographic. I spent a lot of time in four different care homes in Greater London and I think I kind of omitted people living with dementia in that study, which I now see as a huge limitation as there's such a large percentage of people living in care homes that have a diagnosis of dementia.

So, in this project I'm amplifying those findings for my PhD and co-developing reflective toolkits to help people reflect on what spirituality might look like and how the spiritual needs of people living with dementia in care homes can be attended to. So yeah, one of the main methods I think that I've used that have shown to be quite helpful is collecting artefacts of residents living in care homes and trying to understand what those artefacts mean to them and relating that to what gives them meaning at this point in their lives. So yeah, I think having a reflective tool rather than a checklist is quite helpful on a topic like spirituality because it's so subjective and it's so difficult to define. And hopefully that will really help care home staff and residents and their loved ones understanding it a little bit better and implementing it also in their care.

And on top of that, I'd also really like to do more cross-national research about spirituality, but also other kind of topics because I feel that doing international research and comparisons are really valuable to understand yourself better and your own situation better as well as of course learning and understanding other cultures and healthcare and social care systems as well.

Dr Sarah Smith:

I find this so fascinating, Olivia, I think it's such an amazing topic. I would be really interested to understand, so your original work was done with older adults in general in care homes and you're going to now look at people living with dementia in the same settings. Do you feel that the spirituality, is it something that people are willing to explore had they not had experience or perspectives or opinions on spirituality before meeting you or before getting involved in your research? Is it something they want to explore or are you shut down for people who do not want to engage? Because that would be, I suppose really interesting to think of in later life, do people become more spiritual? I don't know. What do you feel?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Very interesting and very good questions. I think it's one of the challenges I found sometimes talking to people about this topic. First of all, like I said before, people very often pigeonhole it to religion only. And I think maybe because myself, I didn't grow up with a religion, I always felt spiritual but not necessarily so strongly about anything particularly. So, I think I also try to include people from all kinds of different backgrounds for that reason. And you're right, I think sometimes the term can be either pigeonholed or off-putting for some people. Some people also relate it more to sort of new agey stuff that some people also have very strong feelings about. So that's again why I think my method of using these artefacts collections could be really useful and, well, actually turned out to be quite useful because it's sort of broadened their mind as to what it might be and it's really not so scary or so particular.

It's actually something I believe everybody has a little bit of that in them. And so that helped quite a bit. I did have one person that I spoke with in a care home, and they said, "You're in over your head, you can't talk about spirituality. That's way too complex. Good luck with that. I'm not talking to you about this." It's still sometimes using the term can put people off already. So, I mean I still chose to use the term because I think it's a good umbrella term for what I'm trying to talk about, but I noticed that sometimes in the field I might talk more about what gives you a sense of purpose or what gives you a sense of peace, things like that.

Trevor Salomon:

This is such an interesting topic. I live in the London borough of Harrow, Olivia, which is truly multicultural, very diverse, and that's reflected in the makeup of residents in my wife's care home. And I wondered what your observations are in care homes which differ from multicultural residents to less of that type of diverse mix? And I'll have some subsequent questions to ask you about this as well.

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

The care homes that I visited so far were quite different kinds of care homes. So, I had one care home particularly for people from Asian communities, so they called it an Asian ethos. And then I had a care home with a Jewish ethos and more Christian one, but I could tell that in all the care homes, even if people were of a particular faith, their spiritual needs were still very diverse. So, you could see that a Jewish resident might want to go to temple on a weekly basis, but that doesn't mean that they only need that to find some kind of meaning in their life.

So actually, what I found so interesting is that spirituality on one hand separates everyone into their individual selves, but at the same time brings people back together because we all have some kind of idea of what gives us this idea of wellbeing, this overall wellbeing. So, I think, I don't know if that answers your question particularly, but I think what you could see in the care homes with a particular faith ethos, sometimes that diverted into focusing too much on that rather than on the more personal needs of people and their spiritual needs particularly.

Trevor Salomon:

No, I think that's a very appropriate answer. By observation in my wife's care home, the one common aspect of spirituality, which really bonds everybody, is cooking.

Dr Sarah Smith:

I wondered if we could talk a little bit about ethnographic methods because I'm an ethnographer and often people ask me, well, why is it any different to qualitative methods in general? And it's no different doing interviews and focus groups and thematic analysis, but it is different, and it has to be different and that's why we choose it I imagine as ethnographers. So, can you tell me what ethnographic methods meant to you in your research and how it brought meaning?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yes, I love this question, Sarah. I can always talk about ethnography very long time. So, let's cut me off when it's getting too much.

Dr Sarah Smith:

It gets dark.

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

So, I think particularly in a topic like spirituality, which is so intangible and difficult to define or to find, it was so helpful to spend quite a long time in different care homes and seeing the day to day and the care practises going on. What Trevor was saying earlier, things like cooking activities or other kinds of activities that you could really see people responding to very well has been just so meaningful.

If I had narrowed down my research to interviews and focus groups only, I would've missed such a depth of understanding of what people in care homes might need to have a sense of peace and well-being on a daily basis. And I think also just the care interactions and the interactions between residents or visitors, like me actually, are just so powerful to really be able to observe. And I think also for that, and I know that this is difficult to find funding for, but to make sure there is enough time to get familiar in a setting as well. So not just visiting once or twice, but actually getting to know the staff and getting to know the residents is just so helpful in getting a deeper layer of understanding. So, I always advocate for ethnographic research and for giving people the time to do it.

Dr Sarah Smith:

And that's the thing, an hour's interview is an hour in that day out of all the hours in every day, what can you capture in an hour through yes, of course, questions and everything, but your observations at different times of the day, different times of the week, are far more in depth, aren't they?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

I agree, yeah.

Trevor Salomon:

In the context of staff in care homes, Olivia, they're all very stretched. They work so hard just to do their primary job, which is to care. And I'm wondering to what extent you think it's fair that they should be responsible for all the spirituality that interacts with the residents?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yeah, again, such a good question. Trevor. I think this is a big challenge for any kind of research or doing research on the workforce in that sense because you're right, they are very stretched everywhere. I'm hoping that with the work that I'm doing, and so far, the reception I've gotten from care stuff is quite positive in the sense of it's just making people think. So, it's not so much telling people do more or do better, it's really just tried to think about the spiritual aspect of providing care. And I've also spoken to people where there's care homes with particular pastors or chaplain or whatever word they give to it, but somebody who is really there for the faith and spiritual needs of people. I think that's a great idea to have a designated person. I realise that is expensive, so of course there need to be resources for that.

But I think also within my research, I'm hoping to demonstrate that spirituality can be in very little things. It's not necessarily about having an hour-long conversation about somebody's spiritual needs, it's really also just knowing a person and making sure that if you know, for example, they want to go to temple, that there's somebody to bring them to temple. Or if you know that they love cooking, that they're there at the kitchen when there's a meal being prepared or something like that. So, I'm hoping that instead of giving extra toolkits or extra tick box lists, that this will open people's minds more. And I think, which I haven't mentioned in my initial introduction with those, for example, the collection of my artefacts, I took photographs of those and created a gallery of spiritualities.

And I've demonstrated that in a care home before, I went to several conferences. And there's always so much conversation about them because I think many people will recognise a photograph of a photo book of someone living in a care home because, of course, photographs are really important and give people the connection to their family and their memories. Or for example, somebody had a phone that they brought to the interview because they really found it important to call their daughter every evening. Those are very recognisable things and just make you think like, oh yeah, I need to make sure that that resident has their phone next to their bed and it's charged, something like this.

Trevor Salomon:

I'm also thinking, you mentioned faith leaders and community leaders and coming into care homes, and I think that's very important, but I also think it's important that family members are encouraged to play their part as well. In my wife's care home, for example, there are many faiths. We actually all enjoy the spirituality aspects of each other's faiths. So last week it was Diwali, and it was just a great celebration regardless of your background. But I'm Jewish by faith, and for the dementia residents in particular in this care home who are Jewish, celebrating certain festivals, taking in certain foods, digs deep into their memory banks, and it brings back something which doesn't surface on a day-to-day basis. And the management of the care home encourage residents to celebrate anything that will bring joy to their residents’ lives, and that doesn't mean to say that we rely on the activities team who can only do so much, from a spirituality point of view, it generally has to come from the families. And again, I don't know how you've observed that in other multi-faith, multi-ethnic background care homes.

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yes, I mean I've seen all of that Trevor, and it's really lovely. And I think my initial assumption strangely was that maybe it's difficult to have several religions under one roof because maybe somebody doesn't like one ritual or doesn't agree with a particular part of someone's faith. But I think you're right in having those celebrations and the rituals, I've mostly seen people very engaged and interested in learning a bit more about another culture or faith or food traditions, again, things like that. So, I've mostly seen very positive examples of that mix. And also, of course, there's a lot of staff with different faiths as well, and I've seen quite a few residents being interested in that and asking questions. Of course, there's also clashes there, but I think what I've seen mostly is a positive interest into each other. And if there isn't, then it's just not discussed as well. So, I agree, I've seen that a lot as well, it's a really nice opportunity at an older age, yeah.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah. No, absolutely. Just a quick story to illustrate how important this is. During that horrendous period of lockdown, the COVID lockdown, for bizarre reasons the care home refused to have a Christmas tree, they were concerned that if the residents touched it, they would all catch COVID. There was no scientific evidence for that at all. And eventually the manager agreed that they could have a Christmas tree, and they would just put chairs around it so that nobody could touch the tree. I mean, they could touch the chairs, but they couldn't touch the tree. But do you know, that lifted spirits massively just to have a Christmas tree there for the staff and all the residents, regardless of their background. So, I could see the joy that just that little gesture brought in a period of severe gloom and doom, not just in the care home, but throughout the country. So, I'm absolutely bought into anything that celebrates and recognises spirituality.

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Can I just on that note as well, because actually Sarah, you mentioned this as well, that perhaps people get more spiritual or religious later in life, and I've seen examples of that as well. First of all, that. There was a gentleman at some point who said, I'm a born-again Jew, which I thought was a funny sort of credo. And Trevor, going back to what you were saying in terms of the memories that come back with certain rituals are so strong as well, so whether it's a kind of food or through songs, music, people remembering certain prayers, just because that's still in their memory somewhere, is incredible, powerful, and I think also really helps maintain that spirit.

Dr Sarah Smith:

And I think just leading on from what Trevor was saying there about one of the massive ... obviously the massive challenges we all faced during COVID and lockdown, and just taking a little bit more broader, not away from spirituality, but with your experiences in residential care homes, Olivia, and with older adults and people living with dementia, what do you perceive to be the biggest challenges going forward facing the social care workforce, and particularly in relation to people living with dementia, because obviously cases are increasing and care needs are increasing. What do you feel, is everything down to money? Is everything going to be down to funding?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yeah, I mean, money is of course always a thing. I can't deny that. I think recruitment and retention is just an incredibly difficult challenge at the moment in healthcare and social care. That's not just in the UK, that's all over Europe. Again, which is why I think also it's really important to see what's happening in other countries and understanding structures that are put in place elsewhere. And I think COVID really gave it an extra hit because it was already happening before that, but the burnouts that came with COVID and just the stress levels became so high. I think that's one of the most difficult challenges of this moment. And yeah, of course money is one thing.

I think also good training can be incredibly helpful. I think it was recently that somebody in the House of Commons said that only 30% of the social care workforce has dementia training. I mean, in the social care workforce, that's quite shocking. And I think also just can you imagine working in a social care setting and not having the proper training to work there? I mean, that must be so difficult. So, I think also that kind of training and support for the workforce is incredibly important to also help take off burden of informal cares, of course, because we also can't expect everyone to drop whatever they're doing and taking care of a loved one. There needs to be a broader source of support for that. So, Sarah, I mean, I wish I could just give you a perfect answer, like this is what we have to do, and then everything is going to be okay. But I think that needs a lot more research and a lot more projects ongoing to understand how we can combat that challenge.

Trevor Salomon:

If you could just introduce one change only for the social care workforce, Olivia, what would it be?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Ooh, that's a really difficult question. Just one change. I mean, increase the salaries I would say is maybe one of the most important ones. But going away from the money thing, what I've noticed also during my research when I was doing, for example, focus groups with staff, just getting staff together and reflect on their practise was incredibly powerful. So just understanding what everybody is doing and where everybody is struggling or thinking about making a change or things like that is really helpful. So, I think having support groups with peers, I notice it myself as well as being a researcher, is incredibly good to have people as a soundboard around you. So perhaps a more direct thing that we could do is create support systems within social care workforce settings.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah. And I think you're right, it isn't just about money, it's about being seen as doing a really professional job, recognised career paths. And I observe the staff in my wife's care home, they are absolutely delightful. They really love their residents, and they need to be rewarded accordingly. But reward isn't, as you said, it's not just about money, it's a lot more than that. And I think a lot of that has to be driven by government. But what it can't do is ultimately all the extra costs of investment in care homes are reflected in care home fees. So, it's a much bigger problem than just sorting out one aspect of it. It's all got to come back down to government and properly funded and recognised social care workforce, but I'm on my hobbyhorse now, as you can probably tell, so I'll jump off it before we get into ... well, before I get into trouble anyway.

Dr Sarah Smith:

No, and I think it's so important, and that's why we do research, Trevor, as you know that it's about impact in the real world. So, Olivia, in a perfect world, how would you envision your research having this impact that's so required and so important in research, otherwise, our results just stay secluded, don't they, in a research environment, in a university or whatever. How would you feel in a perfect world, what would you hope to see in real life situations, in care homes, around your research?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Well, I think particularly for my research, I hope that it brings a bit more awareness to everyone, not just people living or working in care homes, but everyone that spirituality is a really important topic, and someone's spiritual needs are very complex, but at the same time, also very inherent into who everyone is. So, I'm hoping that my work can broaden people's horizons around what that might be and how we can talk about it. So, I'm on a mission to throw my photographs everywhere and bringing awareness about this topic, because I think it's all about also awareness, isn't it, just making people think. I think because lots of this particular research around experiences and needs are so personal that to create these boxed in exercises often doesn't work. So, I think it's really the talking and the reflecting that is really powerful, and I hope that my research is an example of that and bringing that more into practise.

Dr Sarah Smith:

I think that's exactly it. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It's about raising awareness, its giving people options, it's giving people choice. And it's not a tick box is it, or a menu, but it is about choices, and we don't know what we don't know. So, people, if they're given more awareness and knowledge around different topics, I mean, it can only be a good thing, can't it, surely?

Trevor Salomon:

Very exciting. I suspect the three of us could talk for a very great while longer about this. We're going to ask you to talk about yourself shortly, Olivia, but before we do, do you want to mention any other project that you're working on that you think our audience would love to know about?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yes. One project that I'm working on as well is with two other Dem Comm fellows. We set up a dementia community research network, and this is a network based in South London. And I think also all of us know that there's a real difficulty including people living with dementia in research also because it's difficult to get through ethics and things like that. But then on top of that, also people from minoritized ethnic backgrounds are a voice that's even less heard in research. So with this network, what we're hoping to accomplish is create a space where people are from the community, people with lived experience, and researchers come together and create a space where we can talk about this issue and hopefully include more people living with dementia, and particularly those from minoritized ethnic backgrounds into the research world, and vice versa because it's also, researchers need to go into the field more, I think.

So that's one project. And then another one, which I think people might be interested in hearing about is a virtual reality tool that I'm actually, together with Sarah also and some other researchers from Liverpool and Manchester, are working on. And this project really aims to co-develop a virtual reality scenario-based learning tool to raise awareness, which we've mentioned earlier, and also educate younger people. So, we're focusing now on children between 12 and 14 years old and workers within the community as well on dementia, and to assess the impact of a virtual reality tool like that and the feasibility of it. And we're aiming to create a supermarket scenario, actually, because that's such a day-to-day experience where so many people go into. So, to understand what a supermarket might be like for somebody affected by dementia could be an incredibly powerful understanding of everyday life and people affected by dementia. So that's another project.

Trevor Salomon:

A busy researcher.

Dr Sarah Smith:

In the next part of the podcast, we have some speedy career questions that we hope will help others thinking about working in this field and share some of what you have learned from across your career, Olivia, and through the Dem Comm programme.

Trevor Salomon:

So, Olivia, are you ready? We've had a conversation so far, now we just need short answers, please. So, the first question is, what skills do you think are crucial for success in your field and how have you developed these skills?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

I mean, it might be a very obvious answer, but I think listening and communication is incredibly important in the dementia care research field. I've developed these by being in the field a lot, I would say. So, making sure that I understand what's happening on a day-to-day basis, which also comes with some mistakes. So, I remember for example, once I was with my notebook, making notes during an observation while people were having food, were having lunch, and one of the residents came quite irritatingly towards me saying, "What are you doing? Are you observing us?" Which I realised maybe it's not so nice to have somebody observing you while you're having lunch. So, I immediately threw away my notebook, of course, and instead participated more rather than just observing from a distance. So yeah, I think there you can tell that learning about the community in that sense is also very, very important.

Dr Sarah Smith:

Absolutely. And I think in the same kind of vein, what strategies do you use to communicate your findings? So, to non-specialist audiences and laypeople like me.

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Giving lots of presentations in different places is very important. Presentations sounds so clinical or something, but I mean presenting your work in different places. So, I gave presentations in care homes, but also places like the National Care Forum or Making Research Count because there's a lot of people there from different communities, care communities, but also research communities joining those. I'm co-leading together with Kritika Samsi, the Margaret Butterworth Care Home Forum, which also draws a lot of different audience. So, there's a lot of care practitioners there as well. And I think my gallery of spiritualities also is an alternative way of dissemination, which speaks to many different audiences as well.

Trevor Salomon:

Here's a question I often ask myself actually, what's one piece of career advice you wish you'd received early on?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

I remember when I first started my PhD that people kept saying, "Oh, you must have a lot of passion for your research." And I was thinking, am I passionate enough? I don't know how passionate I am. Obviously, I find it very interesting, but I think it's important to not focus only on your research or on your career, whatever it is you're doing. But yeah, it's okay to have different interests. So, it might be a controversial answer, but I think that would've been helpful for me to hear in the beginning.

Dr Sarah Smith:

So, this is a really difficult question, Olivia, and I don't think I could answer it, but do you have advice for anyone working on their first fellowship application?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

That is a difficult question. I think what works for me, whether that's a fellowship or any kind of project that you're going to pitch on, it's important to keep talking about it with colleagues or with friends or with people around you because I find it sometimes quite isolating to write a grant for myself or fellowship proposal, and I go into a loop in my thinking. And I think if you start talking about it, you can break that loop a bit. So, I would advise to find a couple of people that you trust and that you feel can help you and support you to talk things over.

Trevor Salomon:

Olivia, what's the most important thing you think you've learned so far from the fellowship programme?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

I kind of already knew this, but I think the fellowship has amplified this, is having a great network of supportive researchers and interesting people who are doing different things and learning from them. And I mean, it goes back to my previous answer really, keep conversations going and, yeah, having that amazing network. I mean, I think we saw, we recently went to a conference in Geneva and there were, I think, about 20 Dem Comm fellows, and it was just so nice to be able to learn again about what they're doing, and which stage their work is in, and what new ideas they have come up with. It's just really helpful.

Dr Sarah Smith:

This is a question now that we probably talk about the most as researchers. If you could change one aspect of the research career landscape to support early career researchers, what would it be?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

I think it's the job security bit, isn't it? Just having to work on your next grant when you're still trying to finish the last one is so difficult. And I think this Dem Comm Fellowship is quite a good opportunity for that because it allows many of us to put a lot of time and effort into writing a fellowship or papers or things like that. So, I think this is a beautiful example of how it can be done better, but there's still that job security thing, which is always really scary and always looming.

Dr Sarah Smith:

The clock's ticking.

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Yeah.

Trevor Salomon:

Right. We are coming up to the final question now, Olivia. Just for fun. If you could magically acquire any skill or superpower to help you with your research, what would it be and how would you use it?

Dr Olivia Luijnenburg:

Well, this is both for my research and just for my life in general, I would love to be able to teleport myself anywhere, anytime, in the world, and then know the language, be able to speak any language, whoever I speak to. So, if I could just have a little bot in my brain who could speak in every language that the person that I'm finding in front of me I think that would be really beneficial to research, because that means there's more inclusion, there's better ways of comparing. I think also translation studies is just the thing on its own, because it's not just one word to the next, it's also the context of it and the understanding of what the words mean in a certain culture, et cetera. So, if I have that ability, I would be very happy.

Dr Sarah Smith:

I think time is so precious, isn't it? And everything that we do as researchers, I feel takes three times longer than we possibly imagined it would. And that's the thing, it's almost, I look back at the PhD and that was such an indulgence. I didn't realise it at the time, of course, it was such hard work and what have you. But now I'd give anything to be doing one thing, one project, and just that's what that PhD was, it was that indulgence. But now time is so precious, and we have to quickly move from one task to the next.

I'm afraid that is all we have time for today. If you just can't get enough of this topic, like me and Trevor, visit the Dementia Research website where you'll find a full transcript and biographies on all of it. And I would like to thank our incredible guest, Olivia.

Trevor Salomon:

I'm Trevor Salomon.

Dr Sarah Smith:

And I'm Sarah Kate Smith. And you've been listening to the Dementia Research podcast.

Voice Over:

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