Podcast – Minds In Motion, Dr Pippa Collins, Frailty, Dementia, and End-of-life Care

Voice Over:

The Minds in Motion Podcast from Dementia Researcher in association with the NIHR Applied Research Collaborations and Alzheimer's Society showcasing exciting new research and the work of the Dem Comm Fellows.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Hello and welcome back to the Minds in Motion Podcast from the Dementia Researcher. Today we meet Dr. Pippa Collins, an advanced clinical practitioner and Dem Comm fellow from the University of Southampton in the NIHR Arc Wessex. We're going to learn about her career and work on end-of-life care, frailty, and dementia.

Trevor Salomon:

Frailty, dementia, and end-of-life care are important topics, which in our opinion are not discussed enough. We're reminded that every individual involved in our research carries a lifetime of experiences, relationships, and memories that deserve recognition. For many researchers, their work involves and goes beyond clinical treatment. It's about honouring each person's humanity, offering compassion and dignity, and supporting families through these deeply personal journeys. Frailty and dementia challenge us to think holistically, to balance medical care with emotional support, and to ensure that every stage of life is respected. As we consider these aspects of care, let's focus on the ways we can truly make a difference, bringing comfort, empathy, and respect to those who need it most in life's final chapter, something our brilliant guest Pippa knows a lot about.

Hello, I'm Trevor Salomon, an Alzheimer's Society volunteer campaigner. And I myself am a carer for my wife who was diagnosed with young onset Alzheimer's disease in 2013 and has been living in a care home since May 2019. This is a topic I've thought a lot about, so it's a pleasure to be sitting alongside the brilliant Dr. Katie Breheny to explore this important topic.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Thanks for that powerful introduction, Trevor. I'm Dr. Katie Breheny. I'm a Dem Comm fellow at the University of Bristol, and I'm delighted to be here again today. In the Minds of Motion Podcast, we meet NIHR Applied Research Collaborations and Alzheimer's Society Dem Comm Fellows showcasing their important contributions and the brilliant work being delivered through this unique fellowship up and down the country. This is episode four of the latest season, and if you haven't already worked out the format, each series features five Dem Comm fellows who each take a turn at co-hosting alongside Trevor and being a guest on the show talking about our work. And today is all about Pippa.

Hi, Pippa. Could I start by asking you to introduce yourself please?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Hi. Well, I'm Pippa Collins. I'm a clinical academic. I live down in Dorset. I started off life as a physiotherapist. I became a clinical academic then an advanced practitioner. But actually, I started off my working career as a foreign exchange trader in the city. So, I made quite a drastic change coming into healthcare. A change, which I have never, ever regretted.

Trevor Salomon:

That's quite some change.

Dr Pippa Collins:

It's a nasty world in the city. I tell you; it is a nasty world. I'm glad I experienced it for five years, but why those people are paid so much, I don't know. It's an easier job than ours, I can tell you that.

Trevor Salomon:

So, having made that change, can you tell us about your current research?

Dr Pippa Collins:

I'm very, very interested in the end-of-life period for people who are living with dementia. I started off my academic journey with an internship working in acute hospitals. So, the NIHR internship enabled me to really understand what academia and research was and to recognise that research is a powerful tool and underpins everything that we do. I was able to successfully apply for a master's in clinical research and then went on to do a PhD with the Alzheimer's Society. And throughout that progression I became more and more interested in dementia, the stories, particularly the stories of people living with dementia.

And also, I became very, very aware that the healthcare we are providing for people living with dementia is really not good enough. And latterly, I've begun to recognise that one of the things that we really struggle with both as people, as individuals, as people in society, as healthcare and care professionals, is that we don't recognise when a person living with dementia is beginning to approach the end of their life because everybody is so different. Everybody's journey is as different as each and every one of us is as an individual. And that lack of recognition has led to us being aggressively treating people medically sometimes to the detriment of their cognitive and physical wellbeing.

Trevor Salomon:

I think I've got this right. You said dementia care is just not good enough. You've probably seen the stat that says only 29% of dementia carers have actually been dementia trained. So I wonder, to what extent do you think that is a major factor on what you said in your introduction to your research?

Dr Pippa Collins:

I think it is absolutely fundamental because I would also add that I think that I work with people who have been dementia trained and still the understanding is very, very limited. So we have 29% who've had some level of training, but the majority of us really don't understand dementia. And I constantly challenge conversations such as, well, I know she's putting it on because yesterday she could do X, and today she can't do X and I know she can really do that. And you have to say, well, dementia is a condition that varies between days and in days. And that is not somebody playing you up, that is somebody who is living their life and that is the life that we should be supporting. The lack of knowledge, Trevor, is very, very sad. It's saddening.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah. Just to overlay my own experience on top of that, Pippa. I said earlier that my wife's been in a care home since 2019. I shortlisted six care homes, and I asked them all the same question, what dementia training do you give to your staff? And four couldn't answer the question. One refused to answer the question, and only the last care home that I investigated could tell me about their investment in dementia training. And I have to say, my wife's care has been exemplary for all the time she's been in the care home. And so that absolutely supports what you just said, doesn't it?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I was asked by a GP yesterday to discuss a lady living in a care home who the carers were asking for more medication because she was getting angry and distressed. Now, some of the carers were working with this lady and allowing her to shadow them. And this is a lady who was in her own home as she understood it, who was very upset because things were happening without her being involved and being asked. And so got very agitated and upset and would communicate through shouting and sometimes hitting. And although one or two carers recognised that involving this lady in the doings of the home worked really, really well, unfortunately, the majority just thought that giving her more sedation would be the answer. So, we've got a long way to go, Trevor, but there are pockets. As you found in your situation, there were pockets of very, very good care, and that's what we need to remember and propagate.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Pippa, how could we improve this understanding, do you think with dementia? Do you have any solutions?

Dr Pippa Collins:

I think it's an absolutely fantastic societal movement that is now more openly discussing dementia. I think that the work being done by people like Trevor, people like Wendy Mitchell, people like Kate Swaffer who are advocating for themselves, who are not expecting somebody else to talk to them, who are opening up the national conversations about what is dementia, who's living with dementia, how we can help and support people with dementia. I think that's a huge positive improvement in society. And for myself, I have to remember that health care is only a tiny fraction of somebody's life. It's a small corner, although it's a huge part of my life and it's a real push, and we're talking about it nationally now that our social care has got to be invested in. I'm a real strong advocate, I'm afraid for no more money to the NHS and getting money out into social care because that is where we let people down.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. Can you share a bit about what inspired you to focus your career on both clinical practise and research, particularly within end-of-life care for dementia patients?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, it was really because I stumbled upon the NIHR clinical academic pathway and did my internship, the MRes, then stepped out the NIHR and went into the Alzheimer's Society. So, I'd started to recognise that my growing academic ability was enabling me to have a bigger picture and to be a bit more of a helicopter looking down on what was happening in... And I was no longer just focusing on the [inaudible 00:09:59] show. I was able to see the larger picture. And I think that's what I meant earlier on when I said that I did a... Well, maybe I didn't say, but when I did my PhD, it really changed me academically, clinically, and personally because I recognised that Pippa's way wasn't always the best way. And there's so much other knowledge out there. And once we can start to look at what's out there and look at what's happening, we can actually start to make a difference. The reason I've ended up very interested in the end-of-life period is because I'm really sad to say that I have witnessed so many poor deaths, and I find it so desperately upsetting.

And often it involves somebody who's taken into hospital despite all our work in the community to try and keep someone at home, someone who ends up in hospital, who's living with a dementia and who is what I call dismantled by the cognitive overload of the noise and the constant questioning, the numbers of bed moves, the blood tests, the chest x-rays, the CT scans for somebody that... Actually, if we could have just recognised that they were approaching the end-of-life, they were vulnerable medically, socially, emotionally, and cognitively. And actually, although they had a very bad chest infection and then it wasn't responding to antibiotics in the community, that's okay because we're going to support you through to your death, and in fact, you might survive. We don't know, but let's support you at home. And I've seen that again and again, Trevor, I'm afraid, and I really, really want to try and make a change in that pathway.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah, I hear you and I agree with you.

Dr Katie Breheny:

So, in your role as an advanced clinical practitioner, what are some of the most common challenges you face when treating house-bound individuals who are acutely unwell?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, I work in the community, as you know, and actually one of the problems is often getting into somebody's property. So you know you've got... Someone's had a problem and they're really not very well. And actually sometimes I'm climbing in through windows or maybe I'm pushing through a back door or fending off a large dog, finding a key safe in the dark, hidden around the corner of a house behind a dustbin when you just can't feel or see the little numbers. And then actually one of the other funny challenges is some people in Bournemouth live in really very large houses, which if you've been living in it for 60 years, are often not heated, are very dark, and somebody may have actually ended up living in one room and is deaf.

And actually finding a person in a dark house with maybe three or four floors and a basement and no light switches that you can find can be a challenge. And I did find a wonderful lady once in the back of her house who I followed a trail of blood down the corridor and hand prints on the wall and arrived finally in her bedroom. And it was absolutely delightful because she was covered in blood because she'd fallen over and perfectly happy and said, "Oh, hello darling, it's so gorgeous to see you. Would you like a cup of tea?" And we sat down and had a cup of tea. So that was lovely. But really, the big challenge is the complexity. People at home now are incredibly complex.

They're complex medically, emotionally, psychologically, and they very often have very complex families who can't agree on the way forward. There's a lot of... Their lack of recognition of when someone is approaching end-of-life can be very challenging. So there are often quite sensitive conversations to be had. And I think finally one of the really, really big challenges, and I don't know Trevor, if you've always had any experience of this, overnight care. So if somebody has become very unwell or like my lovely lady who was covered in blood, but giving me a nice cup of tea, overnight care is really, really challenging because we just can't get hold of it. And we all know that when we are ill, it's always the middle of the night where we absolutely feel the worst. So we can treat people at home, we can support them during the day, we can get in lots of equipment, but that nighttime period when people are frightened often, they're frightened to be on their own and in the dark is very challenging.

Trevor Salomon:

Fortunately, and to answer your question, Pippa, I never had to experience that. I did retain specialist carers when I needed to go out in the evening on my own whilst my wife was still at home, and they put her to bed, but I was always home and then they left. But the overnight one definitely, I know the challenges that that represents for sure. I guess it's fair to say that current palliative care models probably don't suit the trajectory of dementia. Could you elaborate on what changes you believe are necessary to improve these models?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, actually interestingly enough, I was sat with a palliative care consultant this morning. She very kindly invited me to visit her hospice. And I think that the palliative care challenges are that palliative care is very, very much set up around the cancer model. And in fact, during their ward round today, there is a lack of ability to cope with the complexities of older people and a fear in getting involved with complex older people and people with dementia because of a fear of being overwhelmed. So I think the main problem with palliative care today is that it's a biomedical model that is set up on a very medicalized cancer pathway or a single organ pathway, and it doesn't suit the nuances, the uncertainties that the completely unidentifiable trajectory that people living with dementia have. Because as I said earlier, every single person is completely different in their trajectories. And medicine and the medical model works on uncertainty and the grappling with uncertainty I think is the first stage that we have to overcome.

Trevor Salomon:

Just to back up a bit, I'm going to ask you what your definition is of when palliative care begins in the context of dementia. And I'll tell you why I'm asking the question. I stumbled into a debate recently where many professionals were suggesting that in the context of dementia, palliative care begins when somebody enters a care home and becomes a resident in a care home. And I just couldn't subscribe to that at all.

Dr Pippa Collins:

I don't subscribe to that. There's one train of thought that says that palliative care begins when someone is diagnosed. I don't subscribe to that either. I think people have got an awful lot of living to do before that. I don't even like the term palliative care because it is so biomedical and it is so associated with the final end-of-life stage. And that sounds like a strange thing to say, but it's that period when people are actively dying. You can say you're dying and let's get some morphine up. We know you're going to go quite soon. I prefer using the phrase palliative approach. So I think it begins at a point where somebody has... Let me give you two examples.

So you've got a man, he's living at home with his wife. He's in his early 80s and he's got really severe dementia and he looks wonderful. She's absolutely broken because of the work she's put in, but he is beautifully cared for. He's beautifully dressed and he's eating and drinking really well, but she's doing everything, all the cognitive prompting, the washing, the dressing. This is a man with really severe dementia, that is a man who is incredibly vulnerable to an acute crisis. Whether that be a huge social crisis, maybe the death of his wife or maybe a medical crisis, that I think is when you would put in a palliative approach.

For someone else, it might be that they're shrugging along with four times a day package of care, but they've been in and out of hospital three or four times that year and they've never really... They've got worse each time they've come in and they keep getting infections that we never really get on top of. That again, is somebody that I would recognise as needing a palliative approach. So I think it's interesting your argument, this is typical medical thing. Okay, we need to have a clear marker. It's going to be when someone goes into a care home, that's the time. Actually what we need people to understand through education is no, it is absolutely different for every single person. We need flexibility, we need fluidity, and we need conversations, and we need brave and open and honest conversations.

Trevor Salomon:

I like your expression, a palliative approach. Can I please plagiarise it?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Please do. Please do. I'm trying to spread it, so I'd be delighted.

Trevor Salomon:

Thank you. And I agree with everything you just said, of course. Thank you.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Something I was wondering, Pippa, is how do we engage people at the end-of-life in research if it's so hard to identify them or define it and the sensitive nature of it as well?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, great question, Katie. I'm glad you asked it because actually it's people living with dementia have been very comprehensively excluded from research, particularly... Well, because they've been deemed vulnerable and that vulnerability has enabled exclusion. It's very difficult to get research through ethics. And I have to say, I've managed that on two occasions and I've used videos with people in an acute hospital ward because I argued my case with ethics, but I'm building up for another funding bid. My last funding bid was unsuccessful. And I am going to use a quality improvement approach through my trust, which does not need ethical processes.

And I'm just going to go and ask them. I'm going to go and identify... I can identify the types of people that I'm talking about, and I'm going to go and have a conversation and see what they feel about the business. I'm going to also have a little exploration within that of where they feel research should best be targeted. But until we are brave enough to just go out and ask people and talk to people behind their doors. And I'm so privileged, this is why I love my job, because I go behind those closed doors. I find that key safe behind the dustbin, and I find that person and I can talk to people. So I'm going to do that.

Dr Katie Breheny:

I think there's a lot of tension there between having ethics and being able to publish. What do you think about that?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, that's interesting. So actually there's more people publishing good quality... There is more journals willing to publish good quality improvement projects now. I sound like I'm being completely negligent about capacity and consent. Clearly, I am an expert in capacity and consent, and obviously I will. If somebody really doesn't have the capacity to understand what I'm trying to achieve, then I'll ask a family member or close supporter to help. But what I found in my PhD is that people, even with quite severe dementia, can certainly consent or not having a conversation with me. They can tell me to get lost quite as easily as I can tell you to get lost.

But what is more difficult for a person is to understand the non-contextual issue of using what they're saying as data for service improvement. So I will be using my clinical and academic expertise to establish what consents I need to get to enable these people to take part in my quality improvement. Because I have to get consents, obviously, but I don't have to go through an ethical board to do it. And then I shall use that... Hopefully publish that work. I'm going to ask people... Some of the people I've interviewed, I'll ask if they wouldn't mind being videoed as well. And I'm going to have a collection of stories so people really can be heard.

Trevor Salomon:

That would be very powerful, wouldn't it?

Dr Pippa Collins:

So that's underway at the moment.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Brilliant. That sounds great. So how does your research influence your clinical practises and vice versa?

Dr Pippa Collins:

At every level and all day and every day. Because I no longer just follow in the ruts, that my research head has enabled me to question. So when somebody says to me, as they do quite often in healthcare, "Well, we can't do that."

I say, "Why? Let's find a way to do it."

But clinically, my contact with people living with dementia keeps me grounded. It keeps me grounded to what really is important to those people, not to me.

Trevor Salomon:

You are the lead advanced clinical practitioner, aren't you, for research in your trust? How are you fostering a culture of research and curiosity amongst your colleagues? I read stats recently showing there's been a big decline in clinicians taking up academic fellowships.

Dr Pippa Collins:

And you're absolutely right, there is. Because a lot of managers are not recognising the importance of research. I'm actually using our advanced practise workforce to seed research ability, and we use the term research to cover good quality improvement, good service evaluation and good audit. Our advanced practitioners, the multi-professional framework that we work within has four pillars; clinical, academic, leadership and education. And those three other pillars can be covered by people getting involved with a good quality, let's use the term research project. So I'm seeding research experience. So I've picked out some people who are already quite good and we're using them to work up critically appraised topics.

But equally, I've been working with Bournemouth University, our local university with their knowledge and exchange team. And we're working on bringing through MRes undergraduates who are going on to do MRes as funded by the NIHR. And I'm making sure that there is job descriptions being written for Band 5s and 6s, which is our entry level clinicians so that research is actually part of their job description. So that we're getting research in at the bottom because there's no... Actually a lot of the managers, there's no point tackling them, they just don't have an open mind. But if we can get our new people coming through with research fore-fronted from the start, then we have got hope. So it's a two-pronged attack at the moment, from the bottom and from the middle.

Dr Katie Breheny:

So what are some of the most significant findings from your research that have impacted the way end-of-life is approached for dementia patients?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, I think the thing that I've found out from the work I've done so far is that the palliative care model does not work for our people living with dementia. And that clinicians are not recognising the end-of-life period early enough.

Trevor Salomon:

I think that's succinct, and I think everybody will understand exactly what you've said there. How does your research integrate insights from other fields? I'm wondering such as psychology, neurology or palliative care?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Psychology, definitely. I think that I am recognising the impact of the emotional components of dementia and living with someone who has dementia. The recognition that there are huge relational dynamics that change throughout the life course of dementia. In terms of end-of-life, it's the complexity of grief. It's the letting... Trevor, you know much more than me about this, but it's the letting go of a person and it's the embracing a new person. And I don't know what it must feel like, but the sadness of not having a joint grief if somebody doesn't have the insight into what's happening. So the psychology, I think, to me is the other discipline that really has impacted on how I am viewing the work that I'm doing.

Trevor Salomon:

That's a topic in itself, isn't it really?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Yeah.

Trevor Salomon:

Losing a person while they're still alive, and I don't mean physically. I mean from a cognitive point of view, the inability to have conversations. The person doesn't recognise you. It is a tough gig. What's sad is over time you just get used to dealing with it because you have no option.

Dr Pippa Collins:

Right. Right.

Trevor Salomon:

You have no option.

Dr Pippa Collins:

But it must take little bits away from you each time it happens, doesn't it? Chipped away.

Trevor Salomon:

I think it does. I've tried to separate the whole emotional aspect of being a carer from the pragmatic side of it, and that's my coping mechanism. I guess that's the way I deal with it.

Dr Pippa Collins:

But equally, the shift from you saying, I'm Trevor, and you just called yourself a carer. You didn't call yourself a husband.

Trevor Salomon:

No.

Dr Pippa Collins:

That's a huge change in your identity.

Trevor Salomon:

I'm very clear about that because that husband-wife relationship is not the relationship that we embraced when we got married and for all those years when Yvonne didn't have Alzheimer's. A lot of people... That's the way I see it, and I would never disagree with people who didn't see it the way that I do. It's just the way I am.

Dr Pippa Collins:

That's really fascinating. Thank you for sharing that.

Dr Katie Breheny:

So before we move on to talk a little more about you rather than the research, I'd love to know more about any other projects you're working on.

Dr Pippa Collins:

Well, thanks to the dementia community of fellows, I'm working with Joseph Kwon and a small team in Oxford working on an economic modelling for dementia pathway. And my part of it is to qualitatively explore blockages in the workforce to be then modelled by the programmers and the modellers into this dementia pathway. So it's really interesting to be involved in an area of research, which is so outside of my comfort zone.

Dr Katie Breheny:

That's really interesting as a health economist.

Dr Pippa Collins:

Oh, yes, of course.

Dr Katie Breheny:

How are you finding integrating the qualitative research into the health economics?

Dr Pippa Collins:

I find myself thinking a lot, "Oh, gosh, that's nothing to do with me. I'll just stick to the qualitative side." But the actual fundamental principles are fantastic. And interestingly, I've started to think much more about economics and health economics in terms of my clinical work. So it's actually been a really interesting process for me.

Trevor Salomon:

I like that expression, taken out of your comfort zone. In my own career, I rather enjoy that actually. It made me very nervous. But that's how it has to be.

Dr Pippa Collins:

Yes, quite. Yeah, absolutely. That's how we know-

Trevor Salomon:

It's not always comfortable.

Dr Pippa Collins:

Exactly.

Trevor Salomon:

Okay. Brilliant. So in this last part of the podcast, we have some speedy career questions that we hope will help others thinking about working in this field. We'd love you to share some of what you've learned from across your career and through the Dem Comm programme.

So Pippa, are you ready? Remember, short answers only. What are the essential skills someone should develop if they aim to excel in clinical research and practise simultaneously?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Endless curiosity, ability to be really uncomfortable, challenged, and quite frightened sometimes, and an ability for self-reflection.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Great. So how do you manage the demands of being both researcher and practitioner, and what tips can you offer for maintaining the balance?

Dr Pippa Collins:

The only thing I could think of is that you can't always be perfect. You just have to accept when good enough is okay, and stop and move on to the next thing. And prioritisation.

Trevor Salomon:

You've talked to us about how your work's evolved over time. Just wondering if there've been any pivotal experiences or challenges that really shaped your approach?

Dr Pippa Collins:

The pivotal moment for me was a crushing realisation that something that we call best interest decisions in healthcare are almost always in the occasions that I've witnessed them being made, decisions that are made in the best interest of the institution. That realisation has made me really, really question what I'm seeing and question what I'm doing and what I'm thinking. It's made me braver.

Dr Katie Breheny:

So, we know the Dem Comm fellowships are all about collaboration. How important has professional networking been in your career? And what strategies would you recommend for building impactful connections in the field?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Networking has been foundational. It has been an enormous learning curve. I used to go to conferences with a book and sit in the corner at lunchtime and pretend I wasn't there. I talk to everybody now. You need to be brave. You need to go out and talk to people. In fact, I would say networking has become my superpower now. I would not have been in a hospice this morning speaking to a really senior consultant if I hadn't just bravely emailed her and said, "Please would you talk to me." So networking is absolutely important. It's the best thing that I've discovered, actually. It's fantastic, and I've met the most fabulous people.

Trevor Salomon:

I bet you never get turned down. I mean, does that happen, people say they won't talk to you?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Do you know what? That's the most extraordinary thing, Trevor. No. Everybody will say yes and they'll give you time. It's extraordinary. The kindness of strangers is overwhelming.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah. There's something about the community of dementia in its broadest sense, all the way from research and the people who care for those living with dementia to people like myself, we never say no. Sometimes their head says, I really need to say no this time, but you open your mouth and you say yes anyway.

Dr Pippa Collins:

Yeah. And people like me really, really appreciate that, Trevor, so thank you very much.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah. No, that's fine. In a field that evolves as rapidly as dementia care and research, how do you keep your knowledge and skills up to date?

Dr Pippa Collins:

My networks.

Trevor Salomon:

As simple as that?

Dr Pippa Collins:

It's as simple as that. Well, and I read a bit as well, but it's much easier if someone tells you.

Trevor Salomon:

Absolutely. Thank you.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Okay, so the final question, just for fun, if you could magically acquire any skill or superpower to help with your research, what would it be and how would you use it?

Dr Pippa Collins:

Okay. To answer this, you have to recognise that I'm a clinical academic. My superpower would be, God, get those NHS systems talking to each other. Please.

Trevor Salomon:

Do you know what? I have a young cousin who's recently qualified as a doctor, and he said exactly the same thing. I was talking to him about, if you could change just one thing, he said exactly that. Could all the systems either please be the same or be designed to talk to each other?

Dr Pippa Collins:

The frustrations are the frustrations for everybody, so why hasn't it happened? It's an extraordinary fact that nobody has an answer to.

Trevor Salomon:

I know. I know. I was staggered when he said that to me. I would have thought he'd have said anything but that. He didn't.

Dr Pippa Collins:

You don't work for the NHS.

Trevor Salomon:

Yeah. True. True. Well, I'm afraid that's all we have time for today. If you just can't get enough of this topic, visit the Dementia Researcher website where you'll find a full transcript and biographies on all of us. I'd like to thank our incredible guest, Dr. Pippa Collins. I'm Trevor Salomon.

Dr Katie Breheny:

And I'm Katie Breheny. And you've been listening to the Dementia Researcher Podcast.

Dr Pippa Collins:

And I'm Pippa Collins, and thank you very much for interviewing me. Bye-bye.

Trevor Salomon:

You're very welcome.

Dr Katie Breheny:

Bye.

Trevor Salomon:

Bye, everybody.

Voice Over:

You've been listening to the Minds in Motion Podcast from Dementia Researcher in association with the NIHR Applied Research Collaborations and Alzheimer's Society. To learn more about the Dem Comm Programme and to get all the support you need, visit dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk. And don't forget to like and subscribe.